2015 Challenger Hellcat 707 HP

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Say Ford's SVT product does tip into the 70s. How does that not get the same treatment as the Z/28.... in your own words how much can they get for a warmed over (insert model here). No matter how good the Z/28 is, some people still look at it as just a Camaro. Why would that logic apply only to the Mustang and not the Camaro?

TWO POINTS:

1) The Z/28 EXISTS...and it's selling in tiny numbers, relatively, similar to or possibly exceeding the BOSS LS...that was outrun by a $10K less-expensive 1LE.

2) the next-Gen Z/28, like the Corvette situation, may in fact resemble an LT4 ZL1...with the Z/28 offered with "super-suspension", R-rated-only tires, C-C brakes, and some weight-savings... Call it a ZL1-R, if you like... ONE THING is "for sure": when that hallowed nameplate is re-issued, the car's capabilities will EXCEED the Gen-5 version...in ALL performance metrics...just like the new Z06 does...

What if Ford accepts that challenge of going after the Z06 ( I seriously doubt that just playing the what if game) Ford doesn't have a halo sports car like the Vette, the Mustang fills that role for them. Ford can throw everything possible at the Mustang to make a car to compete with the Vette, and if that was their target it would most likely destroy a future Camaro ZL1. BUT like you mentioned, that would put the Mustang in a price range that it has never seen.
.

And therein lies the "dilemma"...

Again, destroying the ZL1 AT WHAT? And AT WHAT PRICE? Corvette money? Don't think so... You wanna pay Z06-Z07 money for a FAST 1/4-mile Mustang? Buy a Cobra Jet...

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Yup, you're right. GM FAILED on the C7 Z06 when they didn't ONLY concentrate on 1/4-mile times. FAILED-FAILED-FAILED.



I never taunted Ford. I've simply pointed out, at $79K - Base for a C7 Z06, a car (Corvette) with a MUCH RICHER HISTORY OVER A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME than Mustang, that it's a "fool's bet" to try and sell your TOP Mustang (especially in the rarified air of $70K+) dollar-for-dollar (or very close...close enough to be considered as "Corvette competition") against the TOP Corvette.

It's NEVER happened before, successfully, and that ISN'T about to change because YOU "might" buy one if it happens...or so YOU can BRAG on a 'net forum about it...

You're the one doing the "taunting"...and you're doing a pizz-poor job of presenting an even half-ways viable case against the $79K-Base C7 Z06...

Keep this in mind...that's HALF the price Ford clipped folks for the MUCH less-able Ford GT...

Lets be serious here and not use the 79k base price. As we know most who will already offer up 79k will opt for the performance package at 86k. Just as most who purchased the 13/14 GT500 did not opt for the base car, they wanted the optional track package upgrades. For 79k-86k I really don't think that Ford would have much of a problem chasing a Z06 especially if there is 100-hp advantage right out of the gate. The upcoming GT350 should handily take care of the Z/28 for much less money. The question is will they build a new 500 to chase this Z06? Also Z06 at 79k, and the Z/28 at 75k, what was Chevy thinking in regards to the Z/28 pricing?

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Lets be serious here and not use the 79k base price. As we know most who will already offer up 79k will opt for the performance package at 86k. Just as most who purchased the 13/14 GT500 did not opt for the base car, they wanted the optional track package upgrades. For 79k-86k I really don't think that Ford would have much of a problem chasing a Z06 especially if there is 100-hp advantage right out of the gate.

You're ONLY talking 1/4-mile, right? Then why buy the Z07 option?

$79K-Base. Same TORQUE as the 'Cat. 1000 lighter. 8-speed Automatic...which already takes a Base $50-something Vette into the 11s. With 190 fewer galloping horses.

Right?

Now...what will a 750 pony BLOWN S550 weigh? MORE than the GT500 did. Unless you throw aluminum and c/f at it. THEN what's the price? And, with available transmissions, what will this hypothetical "750+ hp" engine deliver for TORQUE? 650. Is Ford gonna yank the tranny from a Power Stroke diesel to back it up? And what does THAT tranny weigh?

"Dilemmas"...

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

You're ONLY talking 1/4-mile, right? Then why buy the Z07 option?

$79K-Base. Same TORQUE as the 'Cat. 1000 lighter. 8-speed Automatic...which already takes a Base $50-something Vette into the 11s. With 190 fewer galloping horses.

Right?

Now...what will a 750 pony BLOWN S550 weigh? MORE than the GT500 did. Unless you throw aluminum and c/f at it. THEN what's the price? And, with available transmissions, what will this hypothetical "750+ hp" engine deliver for TORQUE? 650. Is Ford gonna yank the tranny from a Power Stroke diesel to back it up? And what does THAT tranny weigh?

"Dilemmas"...

Hellcat is not in this discussion and would be out of its league, this is GT350 vs Z/28, and SVT GT500 vs Z06, Not at all I am thinking track and strip.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

TWO POINTS:

1) The Z/28 EXISTS...and it's selling in tiny numbers, relatively, similar to or possibly exceeding the BOSS LS...that was outrun by a $10K less-expensive 1LE.

2) the next-Gen Z/28, like the Corvette situation, may in fact resemble an LT4 ZL1...with the Z/28 offered with "super-suspension", R-rated-only tires, C-C brakes, and some weight-savings... Call it a ZL1-R, if you like... ONE THING is "for sure": when that hallowed nameplate is re-issued, the car's capabilities will EXCEED the Gen-5 version...in ALL performance metrics...just like the new Z06 does...



And therein lies the "dilemma"...

Again, destroying the ZL1 AT WHAT? And AT WHAT PRICE? Corvette money? Don't think so... You wanna pay Z06-Z07 money for a FAST 1/4-mile Mustang? Buy a Cobra Jet...

You tip toed around my question. A 70K Mustang would also be sold in limited numbers too, and in this wonderful world of what if would probably match or better Z/28 performance. So why do you say that a 70-75K price tag for a Mustang would be looked down upon as JUST as mustang, when that same thing applies to the Z/28

I think you may be forgetting that Ford does care about handling and it seems they are trying to offer a complete package. So A SVT Mustang that is chasing Z06, would (or should) destroy a 6th Gen ZL1 in about every perfomance category if its target car was the Z06 ( again which I doubt Ford would go after)

and for the record, these are the rumors I have heard about the next SVT car...and at this point is all rumors

1. There could be 3 versions of a "GT350" A base model, an unknown middle model and GT350R which would be a Z/28 Fighter

2. There is the GT350 to tackle the Z/28 and a different SVT model with either a supercharged or turbocharged 5.0 to be the top HP model

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Also Z06 at 79k, and the Z/28 at 75k, what was Chevy thinking in regards to the Z/28 pricing?

The Z/28 had to cover its own development cost. That was the corporate stance regarding the project being a go

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Hellcat is not in this discussion and would be out of its league

It IS for the sake of predicting applicable 1/4-mile times...

this is GT350 vs Z/28

BOTH Gen-6s, right? And the details of BOTH are unknown...

and SVT GT500 vs Z06

A hypothetical car vs. a hypothetically upgradeable car... I'm on the edge of my seat...

Not at all I am thinking track and strip.

Then what EXACTLY are you hypothetically thinking, hypothetically?

[1QwikZ28]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

And remember, anything Ford does to the Stang, GM can do for the CAMARO...

Not they can't, otherwise the ZL1 would have matched the GT500's power output. GM still can't top the Trinity levels, but the Corvette will have a better chance of doing it long before the Camaro does....and we all know the Camaro will never top the Corvette's hp rating. Carry on...

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by shaffe

You tip toed around my question. A 70K Mustang would also be sold in limited numbers too, and in this wonderful world of what if would probably match or better Z/28 performance. So why do you say that a 70-75K price tag for a Mustang would be looked down upon as JUST as mustang, when that same thing applies to the Z/28?

Because GM actually DID IT...and they're selling in the numbers that match LS7 availability. Actually SELLING...

I think you may be forgetting that Ford does care about handling and it seems they are trying to offer a complete package. So A SVT Mustang that is chasing Z06, would (or should) destroy a 6th Gen ZL1 in about every perfomance category if its target car was the Z06 ( again which I doubt Ford would go after)

Look, sparky, the SVT isn't here, yet. The Gen-6 Mustang has not been reported on, so how can you ASSUME that anything involving a Gen-6 Mustang is going to "destroy" an unseen-untried-untested Alpha-based Gen-6 Camaro??? That's a HELL of a s-t-r-e-t-c-h for even the MOST dandy of Dearborn Dandies to actually BELIEVE...

and for the record, these are the rumors I have heard about the next SVT car...and at this point is all rumors

See above...and stop reading-believing "the jagged one's" drivel...

1. There could be 3 versions of a "GT350" A base model, an unknown middle model and GT350R which would be a Z/28 Fighter

Sounds like the playbook used for the BOSS....that ALMOST succeeded in beating the 1LE...

2. There is the GT350 to tackle the Z/28 and a different SVT model with either a supercharged or turbocharged 5.0 to be the top HP model

To conquer the ZL1...and the Z06...and the Z07...

I've used this word before... REALLY?!

Wish 'em luck from me, will ya? And when you get production green lights and final pricing for those, could you bring that info back here, too?

Thanks.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by 1QwikZ28

Not they can't, otherwise the ZL1 would have matched the GT500's power output. GM still can't top the Trinity levels, but the Corvette will have a better chance of doing it long before the Camaro does....and we all know the Camaro will never top the Corvette's hp rating. Carry on...

It EXCEEDED the GT500 output, when engineering finalization on THAT program was signed off. 580 to 540, remember? And THEN Camaro spent their development dollars on something that SHOCKED the world, positively: something called Z/28.

Since then, Gen-6 is being FULLY attended to.

Chrysler, meanwhile, has NO NEW CHASSIS in sight, and they're stuck with a 2-Ton+ Tony, and plunging car sales, generally. How to generate headlines...and traffic? 707HP! Which will ultimately move Charger-Challenger sales enough to only wither SLIGHTLY when the new-Gen Mustang and Camaro come to market, instead of fully decimating Sergio's tanks.

Ford? Ford read the not-too-difficult-to-read-tea-leaves, saw a warmed-over LSA producing a very close weight-to-power rating imminent in the Camaro (their most-feared and sales-leading competitor), spent some dough on a hopped-up bullet, hobbled with 6-Speed-only and Pep Boys tires (after all, when you spend all the shekels under the HOOD, there's not much left to go elsewhere for "under-$60K", the ZL1 price), and, unknowingly created an easily-duplicated playbook for DODGE!

As to Camaro playing "second fiddle" to Corvette, TWO points:

1) Can you buy, now, a COPO Corvette?

2) Do you think Chrysler did the Viper any GOOD when they equip their taxi cab with MORE straight line capability, for HALF the price, than their "true" halo?

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Hellcat is not in this discussion.

Gee, for a minute, I thought I was in a Hellcat thread... Yeah, that's what it says, so you too must be bored with all this.

OR...

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

...but a MUCH better number than the car it replaced...for EQUAL $$,$$$...

...and "ZR1" still remains available...and if you FULLY read the LT4 Story from HRM, there's MORE AVAILABLE-COMING...



IF (that word) a Gen-6 Mustang GT500 was available, it would Base @ $60K, at a minimum.

NOW, things like Multimatics, and/or MRC, and something better than Pep Boys tires, and C-C brakes EXIST. Add those to your hypothetical "$60K GT500", along with aluminum and/or c-f...and where are you?

You've just BLASTED through $70 and you're headed for $80...or MORE!

And remember, anything Ford does to the Stang, GM can do for the CAMARO...with an already-bought-and-paid-for ENGINE! Or, the ones HRM alluded to...you know, those engines that Powertrain was ACTUALLY working on while you were whining about GM's "engine upgrade failures"...

Where did you get a base $60k for the GT500? The other cars only went up a small amount.

Everything you said about the GT500 would apply to the ZL1 as well. You think a Camaro getting the exact drive train and reinforcement needed for such a stout engine would be any cheaper? An LT4 powered ZL1 wouldn't be all that much cheaper than the Z06.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Because GM actually DID IT...and they're selling in the numbers that match LS7 availability. Actually SELLING...

Ok, just wanted to know your reasoning. Just one more question on this and i'll leave it be. Before the Z/28 was announced, what did you honestly think about the idea of a 75K Camaro?

Look, sparky, the SVT isn't here, yet. The Gen-6 Mustang has not been reported on, so how can you ASSUME that anything involving a Gen-6 Mustang is going to "destroy" an unseen-untried-untested Alpha-based Gen-6 Camaro??? That's a HELL of a s-t-r-e-t-c-h for even the MOST dandy of Dearborn Dandies to actually BELIEVE...

And I said my posts were in the hypothetical what if land. If you thought I was trying to be serious as to what I believed than my bad, just hypothetical bench racing here haha

you brought up how YOU didn't think Ford/SVT could build a mustang to compete with (I am assuming you meant a LT4 derived ZL1 that also does not exist yet), without it entering Z06 price territory....which is why I brought up the hypothetical what if they did target the Z06(which both agreed on would put Mustang at a super high price point) Now I think we both can agree that a Z06 would destroy a 6th Gen ZL1 in just about every measurable performance stat. Wouldn't a mustang built to chase down the Z06 then in theory (bc we are in hypothetical what if world) also have to be superior to the ZL1 in order to come close to the Z06.



See above...and stop reading-believing "the jagged one's" drivel...



Sounds like the playbook used for the BOSS....that ALMOST succeeded in beating the 1LE...

You mean that 1LE that came out AFTER the BOSS. Thats a tip of the cap to GM, they saw an opportunity to take it to Ford and they did. They did it with a faster car for less money.

On a side note, we know that there are tracks that the 1LE is clearly faster than the BOSS 302LS...why can I not find 1 time for the 1LE on Laguna Seca. I like knowing that tracks time, bc motortrend normally does a pretty good write up with Randy Probst doing pretty honest reviews of how each car handles. Has no one taken a 1LE around Laguna Seca?

To conquer the ZL1...and the Z06...and the Z07...

I've used this word before... REALLY?!

Wish 'em luck from me, will ya? And when you get production green lights and final pricing for those, could you bring that info back here, too?

Again, I tried to preface this all as hypothetical. I didn't try to make this seem like me saying Ford will do this or will do that or can do this. I was just doing hypothetical bench racing (slow day at the office)

Thanks.

Responses in red. Again, none of my responses were supposed to be taken as what I seriously thought Ford would do. Thought we were in the land of "what if"

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Where did you get a base $60k for the GT500? The other cars only went up a small amount.

How much did the GT go up? Would the standard equipment GT driveline take the forces of a GT500 engine? I'll answer the second: NO! Could you get away with putting Pep Boy tires on a new-Gen 662 hp Mustang? Maybe...Mopar did, with the Hellcat. So they'd build the GT500 to Hellcat standards? Or fully competitive with GM? GM is the answer, then? Add tires...and VOILA! $60 for Fun...if not $65K...

Whatever a GT500 would Base for, it will mirror a Gen-6 ZL1...right? Just like they do, now...

Everything you said about the GT500 would apply to the ZL1 as well. You think a Camaro getting the exact drive train and reinforcement needed for such a stout engine would be any cheaper? An LT4 powered ZL1 wouldn't be all that much cheaper than the Z06.

Well, if I was an internet gambler, I'd gladly take your money, Hobbsie, but Mama said I shouldn't...

Do you think a Base SS Gen-6 Camaro is going to sell for Vette money? REALLY? If so, you're NOT depressed with all this, you're suicidal!

If SS Camaros, well equipped (2SS?), sell for $40ish ($15K+ LESS than a Base Vette), what will a ZL1 sell for? $15K under a Z06, depending? EQUALLY FEATURED! Maybe $20 less...

SEE above, regarding GT500.

Hobbsie, when you talk about GT500, you're also likely talking about ZL1 and, unless Ford puts a nuclear reactor under the hood (where would you get FUEL RODS?!)...in which case, Ford fans will HAVE to pay for it...