The ultimate facepalm moment. Like...I don't have words.

[Hammer St. James]

Originally Posted by CamaroSkooter

Right. I wasn't trying to win your contest. I was simply trying to illustrate that the chemical compound THC (tetrahydrocannabinol) can be toxic if the dosage is high enough, just like any other substance, whether naturally occuring or man-made.

You just don't tend to see pot-smokers dying from overdosing because to get to the toxicity level needed to kill a human, you would have to consume quantities that are not financially feasible for your typical pot-smoker.

The debate isn't whether marijuana itself kills, it's the stupid crap people do after smoking it that gets them killed.

Similar to the statement, "it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden deceleration at the end that does."

Please allow me to address some issues to your post:
The THC LD50 (lethal dose to kill 50% of subjects) for rats is 42 Mg/Kg of body weight. Recalculating this for a 165 lb. human would equate to 670 bong hits or 100 joints. I never in my entire life have met anyone capable of such a feat; wealthy or indigant.

Please produce your data on the "typical" pot smoker's income. I am very intrigued to peruse such information. Do you per chance also hold the other demographics pertaining to these individuals as well?

In regards to deaths post THC consumption via "stupid crap" that people do. Once again, I beg of you to produce hard factual evidence to this staement.

It's wonderful that other's share their opinions and it's interesting to debate subjective ideas - on the other hand, facts don't lie and when you can substantiate your statements with factual evidence then the topic arrives undebatable. Until then, your point is moot.

If I may be so bold to quote George Clinton: "Free your mind and your ass will follow".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thc#Toxicity

[Brutal SS]

Originally Posted by Hammer St. James

Please allow me to address some issues to your post:
The THC LD50 (lethal dose to kill 50% of subjects) for rats is 42 Mg/Kg of body weight. Recalculating this for a 165 lb. human would equate to 670 bong hits or 100 joints. I never in my entire life have met anyone capable of such a feat; wealthy or indigant.

Please produce your data on the "typical" pot smoker's income. I am very intrigued to peruse such information. Do you per chance also hold the other demographics pertaining to these individuals as well?

In regards to deaths post THC consumption via "stupid crap" that people do. Once again, I beg of you to produce hard factual evidence to this staement.

It's wonderful that other's share their opinions and it's interesting to debate subjective ideas - on the other hand, facts don't lie and when you can substantiate your statements with factual evidence then the topic arrives undebatable. Until then, your point is moot.

If I may be so bold to quote George Clinton: "Free your mind and your ass will follow".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thc#Toxicity

There's a lot of "reefer madness" propaganda mentalities still out there, and without a shred of evidence to support their position. In fact, it's still the majority opinion despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

I don't condone the intake of any substance, and I personally don't have a dog in the fight, but the arguement from those who oppose have nothing left but, "Well, it's against the law."

Since the 'reefer madness' stuff has all been debunked and exposed as the propaganda that it is, that's literally the only reason remaining as to why people actively oppose it.

[HorsePower-Freak]

[Xedes]

Originally Posted by kalimus

I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers or anything, but you honestly think that the fact you can go out to any of the hundreds of bars to drink freely doesn't raise the drinking and driving? Yeah, they drank during the prohibition. But they didn't drive out to socialize and meet new people and then go "awww, how am I going to get home?". They had to be more "secretive" about it.

You go to any decent sized city, and you're talking literally dozens of bars within a couple square miles. You can't honestly think that that availability, combined with having to drive to get there, doesn't contribute to DUI.

Actually, I have an even better example. Not that I drank before I was 21... but IF I had... I would have went to a person's house, or a get a hotel room, and I would have gotten drunk, and not went ANYWHERE. I would have done that, because it was illegal for me to drink, and I didn't want to get caught. Now that I'm of age, and it's so socially acceptable to go have some beer with friends, etc etc... I have to plan almost every time I go out.

Increased availability and affordable prices, leads to increased use and consumption with ANY product. Gasoline, electronics, clothes, food... you name it. Drugs are no different. "Happy Hour" anyone?

It's legal to buy marijuana in Amsterdam and they still have a lower consumption rate than the U.S. 28% of their teens use it compared to the United States 41%. Even stranger is the fact that the U.S spends more money on the war on drugs but still have an overall higher rate of users. The percentage of teens that go on to try harder drugs is also higher in the U.S.

Psychologically people want things they can't have or are told they can't have more so than if they are freely available to them.

[Xedes]

Originally Posted by CamaroSkooter

A person can die if they consume a whole container of salt, too.

You're using a logical fallacy to try and argue why something should be legalized. Just because one thing is legal, doesn't mean it should be used as an example of why something else should be legal.

If you abuse anything, it can kill you, whether it's legal or not. That's not what's up for debate here

This was more of a response to your post (#75) than my argument to legalize it.

[kalimus]

Originally Posted by Xedes

It's legal to buy marijuana in Amsterdam and they still have a lower consumption rate than the U.S. 28% of their teens use it compared to the United States 41%. Even stranger is the fact that the U.S spends more money on the war on drugs but still have an overall higher rate of users. The percentage of teens that go on to try harder drugs is also higher in the U.S.

Psychologically people want things they can't have or are told they can't have more so than if they are freely available to them.

I'm not trying to compare our current use to another country though. Americans as a whole are kind of gluttonous. We also use more gas, eat more food, and spend more beyond our means than a lot of other countries. Personally, I would attribute your usage amount to "American lifestyle". What I was driving at, is that if it's 41% now, making everything legal will only drive that amount up past where it's at.

I love it here, and wouldn't want to be anywhere else, but Americans really have this playboy mentality that far surpasses a lot of other countries. And the reason people buy, buy, buy here, is that it's glorified to spend money like that. Not just drugs, but alcohol, cars, tvs, big houses... stuff that people don't really need.

And yeah, people will always want what they can't have, I'm completely with you on that. But would you let your kids have whatever they want? There comes a point where it's best to say no. And I realize not all of us here are kids, but it reminds me of this thing I heard a few years ago:

"Think about yourself 10 years ago. Were you smart back then? NO! You were a fricking idiot. Fact of the matter is, that you're just as much of an idiot now, it's just going to take 10 more years for you to realize it!"

I think in a perfect world, legalizing everything would very much be the right thing to do. But in a PERFECT world, being communist would be too (and I'm really not joking about that). But we all know how that worked out.

As a side note, I really DO enjoy this conversation. We're 5 pages into keeping it more or less civil so far? MODS! Where is "thread of the week"?

[Brokinarrow]

Really, I don't see how marijuana is any worse than tobacco and alcohol, or even some prescription drugs that are on the market. I really don't think it'd be a horrible thing to legalize it, and doing so may even help put the Mexican cartels out of business. Legalize, regulate, tax, just like we do with alcohol and tobacco.

Other drugs however, can be much more addicting and cause much more problems. I suspect that a large amount of the crime is going to come from users of the harder substances. I've not once heard of someone killing for weed... but maybe some of the LEOs here could enlighten us with stories of that nature.

[C5RocksC5]

In CA, they would smoke that shit in your face.

[kalimus]

Originally Posted by pdari

In CA, they would smoke that shit in your face.

Yet they still haven't managed to get enough votes for the prop to legalize it. With how liberal this state is, I'm a little surprised.

[SnoopyAce7]

OP was a buzzkillington :(

[Xedes]

Originally Posted by Brokinarrow

Really, I don't see how marijuana is any worse than tobacco and alcohol, or even some prescription drugs that are on the market. I really don't think it'd be a horrible thing to legalize it, and doing so may even help put the Mexican cartels out of business. Legalize, regulate, tax, just like we do with alcohol and tobacco.

Other drugs however, can be much more addicting and cause much more problems. I suspect that a large amount of the crime is going to come from users of the harder substances. I've not once heard of someone killing for weed... but maybe some of the LEOs here could enlighten us with stories of that nature.

Plus there are so many other benefits. All the farmers that are getting paid NOT to grow anything could actually get on their own feet by growing marijuana. Medically speaking, why pay these big corporations $20+ a pill for anti anxiety pills when you can pay farmer Jack $40 for a 1/4 ounce of weed, feel better and not have that list of possible side effects to deal with like pharmaceutical drugs have.

The millions of dollars being spent trying to stop it could be used for other things or at least they could focus on the harder drugs like cocaine and heroin.

[Steve Dallas]

Originally Posted by Xedes

Plus there are so many other benefits. All the farmers that are getting paid NOT to grow anything could actually get on their own feet by growing marijuana. Medically speaking, why pay these big corporations $20+ a pill for anti anxiety pills when you can pay farmer Jack $40 for a 1/4 ounce of weed, feel better and not have that list of possible side effects to deal with like pharmaceutical drugs have.

The millions of dollars being spent trying to stop it could be used for other things or at least they could focus on the harder drugs like cocaine and heroin.

I agree that many drugs are much more addictive and damaging than pot. Alcohol, Heroin...and other addictive drugs definately effect families. I know because my father was an alcoholic. I had a girlfriend killed by a drunk driver. I know the destructive effects of an addictive drug...and alcohol is FAR more damaging than pot is or ever will be.

So, should we outlaw alcohol again? (Rhetorical question there).

Some only propose legalizing marijuana and leaving it at that.

The reason I say it should be for all drugs is...you can pretty much get all drugs pretty easily right now...and they are illegal. Will there be an increase in usage by legalizing everything? Yes, but not by as much as some people think.

We have laws that deal with family abuse. We have laws that deal with driving under the influence. We could always enforce those laws. Pot and some other substances are harder to detect or linger in the system...but there are laws against driving impaired. If you aren't coordinated enough to drive, walk the line or perform simple motor function skills...these tests can become more of a standard, rather than a breathylizer or blood test. We have ways of enforcing this, and can modify our laws easily enough to adapt to the new situation.

Seriously. If you feel that marijuana should be kept illegal, then I hope you are also being consistant by insisting that alcohol should also become illegal. Otherwise, frankly...you are kind of a hypocrite...because you are giving the more dangerous drug a pass.

[2001ragtop]

IBTL !

One interesting thing to note based on the occasions that I have tried pot:

1) Play a game where you try to guess when 60 seconds has gone by, and usually when you check your watch, only 30 seconds elapsed.

2) Being that we cannot get "actual proof" of what is on the moon, or what is in outer space, or what is being stored in underground bases, and you are not allowed classified info about ufos, etc.....Pot CAN help you "go to another dimension" which could allow you to Postulate theories about what is "probably true", and you might be able to obtain ideas which you "normally" would not investigate. In other words, it can open your mind.

3) Pot is illegal because if you legalize it, you won't be able to walk anywhere more than 100 feet before you see someone with blood-shot eyes laughing and giggling to himself uselessly all day long clinging to a large bag of Fritos. That's the ONLY reason it's not legal. A (non-medicated/non-intoxicated person) does not want to be forced to see these types of people left and right all day long. It's too depressing. It also would make it difficult to take your children anywhere to do any family-based activities. "Daddy why is that dude laughing alone by himself at McDonalds".

4) I did know one person who passed the bar, and is a full fledged lawyer and he regularly smoked pot. However since I knew he lived his life that way, I likely would not have trusted him or hired him for anything. The only thing he did was PROVED to me how EASY it is to become a lawyer. He passed the bar on the FIRST try. He might be a genius but I never saw any indications of it.

[kalimus]

Originally Posted by Steve Dallas

I agree that many drugs are much more addictive and damaging than pot. Alcohol, Heroin...and other addictive drugs definately effect families. I know because my father was an alcoholic. I had a girlfriend killed by a drunk driver. I know the destructive effects of an addictive drug...and alcohol is FAR more damaging than pot is or ever will be.

So, should we outlaw alcohol again? (Rhetorical question there).

Some only propose legalizing marijuana and leaving it at that.

The reason I say it should be for all drugs is...you can pretty much get all drugs pretty easily right now...and they are illegal. Will there be an increase in usage by legalizing everything? Yes, but not by as much as some people think.

We have laws that deal with family abuse. We have laws that deal with driving under the influence. We could always enforce those laws. Pot and some other substances are harder to detect or linger in the system...but there are laws against driving impaired. If you aren't coordinated enough to drive, walk the line or perform simple motor function skills...these tests can become more of a standard, rather than a breathylizer or blood test. We have ways of enforcing this, and can modify our laws easily enough to adapt to the new situation.

Seriously. If you feel that marijuana should be kept illegal, then I hope you are also being consistant by insisting that alcohol should also become illegal. Otherwise, frankly...you are kind of a hypocrite...because you are giving the more dangerous drug a pass.

Unless there is something I don't know about (which is always likely), I can't be ticketed for something like driving tired (which is impared). The problem is with other subtances is that you can't PROVE them on the spot. And things like pot, you can only PROVE that it was recent (within a couple weeks). Nothing to prevent someone from saying they tested the way they did because they were baked 12 hours ago.

Alcohol is dangerous, and as much as I like having a beer every now and then, I really wouldn't complain too much if it were made illegal (although I know LOTS of people would). But the argument to legalize being "because alcohol is worse" is not a good argument. "Because it's already easy to get" is also not a good one. All arguments are speculative (even some of my own against legalizing it). You don't know how much use will go up, neither do I. But we both know it will go up. You don't know how more dangerous (if at all) it will be, because it hasn't been legal in so long that there is no data to support it. I don't either. But we both know it impairs your ability to act and think 100% clearly. And there really isn't any data to support it doing anything, because you can never prove (without a doubt) that the person was baked at the time. Only that they've done it recently. People want to gain money off the taxes (great excuse), but to what end? Don't want to get into politics, but imagine what that money will actually go to do. We don't really know, but probably not to everything that it is advertised for.

But to enforcing it, which is my BIGGEST argument against legalizing it is the proof... how much time and money do you think would be wasted? A cop arrests someone or tickets someone for doing <insert whatever> while they were high. Or an employer fires someone because it's against company policy to be high at work (an issue with Cali's recent prop). That accused person goes to court, says "I wasn't high at the time, I have allergies, or I didn't sleep last night, or had an eyelash in my eye <or any other red eye excuse> and that's why they I'm being accused. PROVE that I was high at the time". You can't. When the day comes however, that you CAN with the same reliability as alcohol, the pro-smokers will have lots more of my support. I suspect quite a bit of other support as well.

What I would really like to see, is a good counter to my previous paragraph. I'm not going to smoke pot either way. I've tried it, and it's not my thing. I used to smoke cigs too, but I hear they are bad for you. Alcohol is terrible? Make it illegal. It doesn't run my life, and I'll stop drinking the one or two drinks a month I might have. If it will diminish DUI, reduce home violence... go for it. But I honestly think alcohol is a seperate conversation to the one we are having. They are not the same drug. They don't effect you the same way. Note that I'm not trying to compare weed to cocaine or heroin or meth in any of my arguements for that same reason.