GT500 Nurburgring time?

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by BigDan

I'm not sure about the other CARB compliant states bout in CA you dont have to comply if you live in a county fewer then X amount of people, and the same might go for the other states. Its a VERY handy loop hole, just imagine the possibilities. You could put a freakin NASCAR engine in a 5th Gen or what ever else floats your boat.

There are 34 of the 58 counties in California that require vehicle smog inspections. They are Alameda, Butte, Colusa, Contra Costa, Fresno, Glenn, Kern, Kings, Los Angeles, Madera, Marin, Merced, Monterey, Napa, Nevada, Orange, Sacramento, San Benito, San Francisco, San Joaquin, San Luis Obispo, San Mateo, Santa Barbara, Santa Clara, Santa Cruz, Shasta, Solano, Stanislaus, Sutter, Tehama, Tulare, Ventura, Yolo, and Yuba.

There are six counties in California that require vehicle smog inspections within certain Zip Codes only. They are El Dorado, Placer, Riverside, San Bernardino, San Diego, and Sonoma.

The remaining 18 counties in California do not require vehicle smog inspections.

In general, the urban and suburban, densely populated areas require vehicle smog inspections, and the rural, sparsely populated areas do not.

[eolson]

A Ford engineer I know who is a fellow professor up at the college I teach at here in Detroit, College for Creative Studies, said that the best time that had been relayed to him for the 2013 GT500 at the Nurburdring is 7:32. That is unofficial of course. I have no idea why it has not been publicized with all the other info. Erik

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by eolson

A Ford engineer I know who is a fellow professor up at the college I teach at here in Detroit, College for Creative Studies, said that the best time that had been relayed to him for the 2013 GT500 at the Nurburdring is 7:32. That is unofficial of course. I have no idea why it has not been publicized with all the other info. Erik

If true, it is now pretty easy for Ford to track down an engineer that also teaches at the CCC and take action for discussing proprietary information in public.

If Ford has a number, they may be holding it close to the vest similar to holding the 650 HP number.

I believe Ford is playing a pretty sophisticated marketing game here considering that with the Boss and with the GT500 they still can't outsell the Camaro and they are probably working it pretty hard to make as big a splash as possible.

If.........BIG IF.......they have a number better than the ZL1, then I'd look for a very strategic announcment of that time. But keep in mind GM has already sold most if not all ZL1s. So Ford will be doing more of a "look what we are capable of" play as well. Making an overall Mustang and FoMoCo message. Just my guess, though.

If they don't have a better number, then we can have lengthy discussions on how the 'ring requires a lot more than lower weight and more HP.

What no one knows or has disclosed knowledge of is what has Ford has done for the transmission and rear axle. I can give you a 700 HP or even 800HP engine, but if I have to torque manage it for reliability then it's a different story. Did they improve the rear suspension? Did they manage an IRS? What about brakes? You won't do well at the 'ring without good brakes, no matter how much HP you muster. And tires? We know the Z06 and ZR1s both shaved 10 or so seconds off with the available cup tires.

Lots we don't know yet. And Ford is doing outstanding work right now so it won't be a slouch.

But as Fbodfather points out, Ford doesn't have a Corvette. The Mustang is the biggest gun in their arsenal. So from GM's perspecitve if you want even more than a ZL1 you can still step up..................twice.............to cars the Mustang can't keep up with.

[eolson]

Actually it's not proprietary information at this point. Ford simply has not officially made the Nurburgring time public, but they don't seem to care that the number be bounced around unofficially either, because until it is officially announced, it is just speculation.

We'll see if the taller 1st gear, taller final gears, taller tires and real traction control pay off for the new GT500's launch grip. I can only hope with the ZR1 being such a monster, and the Boss302 putting down 4.0 0-60's that they would be making sure the GT500's 0-60 is 3.7 or better. Either way, ten years ago, no one could have dreamed that cars that looked as good as all these current and new cars would be able to perform at this level. I still can't believe it. Erik

[Rock36]

Originally Posted by eolson

A Ford engineer I know who is a fellow professor up at the college I teach at here in Detroit, College for Creative Studies, said that the best time that had been relayed to him for the 2013 GT500 at the Nurburdring is 7:32. That is unofficial of course. I have no idea why it has not been publicized with all the other info. Erik

Here are my thoughts, and I'm going to keep it in the realm of Ford to mitgate brand loyalty/preference.

I think most of us can generally agree that the Ford GT is an outstanding car. If anything is a track ready car the Ford GT is. Now according to what I can find the Ford GT did a lap time of 7:42 on the Nürburgring by Octane magazine. Sport Auto only managed a 7:52.

Now there is nothing about the 2013 GT500 that makes me believe that it is a superior track car to the Ford GT. The 2013 GT500 has only a marginally better power-to-weight ratio, and that is where it ends really. There is no black magic here so I just don't believe the '13 GT500 is faster than a Ford GT. Certainly it isn't 10 seconds faster, and no way in hell is it 20 seconds faster. But all the people who take Ring times as the gospel will believe this to be true.

So this tells me that a) the Ford GT has far more potential on the Nürburgring than it has shown or b) The 2013 GT500 didn't really post a 7:32

If a) is true then why should I seriously consider any Nürburgring lap time? Since apparently there is so much randomness left on the table due to driver experience, track conditions, etc.

If b) is true then that might be why Ford hasn't posted any official times, because the 7:32 isn't true. Or if it is, it wasn't backed up with similar numbers.

But until Ford posts a real official time, then I'm not even going to repeat the rumors.

[eolson]

The Bos 302 LS has as good or a better lap time around curvy handling tracks then the Ford GT did, and it has better lateral G's too, although the Boss lacks the acceleration and top speed of the Ford GT, the 2013 GT500 doesn't lack those factors, with the combo of a better lateral G suspension, and traction control, I have no doubt the 2013 GT500 can obtain a better Nurburgring time than the Ford GT did. Erik

[BigDan]

Originally Posted by Rock36

I think most of us can generally agree that the Ford GT is an outstanding car. If anything is a track ready car the Ford GT is. Now according to what I can find the Ford GT did a lap time of 7:42 on the Nürburgring by Octane magazine. Sport Auto only managed a 7:52.

Now there is nothing about the 2013 GT500 that makes me believe that it is a superior track car to the Ford GT. The 2013 GT500 has only a marginally better power-to-weight ratio, and that is where it ends really. There is no black magic here so I just don't believe the '13 GT500 is faster than a Ford GT. Certainly it isn't 10 seconds faster, and no way in hell is it 20 seconds faster. But all the people who take Ring times as the gospel will believe this to be true.

Tire technology has improved by leaps and bounds in the past 9 year since the FGT came out. Put a set of ZO7 tires on a FGT and you will see it shave 10+ seconds a lap.

Same could be said for the 2013 GT500, swap out its F1 G2's for a 10 year old tire and watch it loose 10+ seconds.

You cant really compare older cars on the list to newer ones due to the simple fact that all the new tests were performed on the latest and greatest set of tires.

[eolson]

To me, the promotion of the ZL1 is right on the spot, using the Nurburgring time is appropriate and telling, because the "best" lap time gives an accurate gauge of the cars multiple abilities. 7:41 is an amazing time.

Ford needs to step up and confirm a real best time for the2013 GT500 if they have one, or get one in the spring when conditions allow for equivalent testing. It is lame that there is not clearly posted times for the Boss302, and other aftermarket Mustangs. Erik

[eric n]

Mustang guy here but, The ZL1 has set the mark. The 2013 gt500 will have a hp and weight advantage, but the ZL has vastly more sophisticated suspension. Either car would be a kick to drive, but for now Chevy appears to have the better rounded beast. Gotta love the modern American Muscle/Pony cars.

[Rock36]

Originally Posted by eolson

The Bos 302 LS has as good or a better lap time around curvy handling tracks then the Ford GT did, and it has better lateral G's too, although the Boss lacks the acceleration and top speed of the Ford GT, the 2013 GT500 doesn't lack those factors, with the combo of a better lateral G suspension, and traction control, I have no doubt the 2013 GT500 can obtain a better Nurburgring time than the Ford GT did. Erik

I'm going to borrow a line from BigDan and chalk that up to mostly the tires. Especially on the Laguna Seca editions as they come with R compound tires. So if you were to throw those tires on a GT500, and add the internal cross brace the LS has on a GT500 I might agree.

Admittedly, I don't have the specs, designs, or calculations in front of me, but the Ford GT chassis is pretty amazing. To me the GT500 is still on an S197 chassis at the end of the day despite updates. The Ford GT has a lower center of gravity than the S197s chassis, I'm positive the Ford GT has a better polar moment of inertia simply because it is mid-engined, the Ford GT is lighter, etc. I can't imagine that spring rates, brakes, and stabilizer bars on the 2013 GT500 are superior to the Ford GT either. Or at the very least they aren't superior enough to counter all the advantages of a Ford GT.

I didn't point it out well enough, but those Ford GT runs on the ring were also done by magazines, not the actual companies trying to run a best time as is the trend these days. The Ford GT I'm sure has a lot of room left on the table if some pro driver seriously wanted to take a stock version back to the ring.

Originally Posted by BigDan

Tire technology has improved by leaps and bounds in the past 9 year since the FGT came out. Put a set of ZO7 tires on a FGT and you will see it shave 10+ seconds a lap.

Same could be said for the 2013 GT500, swap out its F1 G2's for a 10 year old tire and watch it loose 10+ seconds.

You cant really compare older cars on the list to newer ones due to the simple fact that all the new tests were performed on the latest and greatest set of tires.

I agree and that was kind of the direction I tried to head in my post. Not so much because of tires specifically, which is valid, just in general. Whether it was tires/compounds or just pure focus on extracting the best possible time out of a car with the most proficient driver a company can muster; I was really illuminating how one car that is superior to another IMHO, could be unfairly judged as slower, and that blind quoting of ring times or speculation can be misleading.

That said, short of what tires are run, I'm still not convinced a '13 GT500 is faster than a '05-'06 Ford GT, so I'm skeptical of the rumored 7:32. If it does run a 7:32 then I'm inclined to believe that a Ford GT could potentially do better if the effort was made. That is all really.

[eolson]

Rock36, my point being is that on the same chassis, the Corvette has made major HP and handling improvements, obviously the Camaro has set this new ZL1 bench mark, and so might the 2013 GT500 if Ford "FINALLY" gives it's cars the same advantage as others.

A) not having to compromise and have a softer less hardcore suspension so that one suspension setting must fit all activity, now it can be super stiff for high performance.
B) Now there is actually Real launch control, actually pushing the car to it's limits right before the tires slip and spin, so that maximum thrust is applied at all times without waisted traction moments.
C) The car for it's weight is better balanced and responsive than ever before, and the gear ratio is in cooperation with the power and launch control at hand. The only thing missing is a form of Watts Link so that there is no Lateral slip of the frame over bumps and dips, we'll see if Ford has further removed this element in the car, as did the 2011 GT500 mostly.
D) The improvements built into and learned from the Boss302 LS on this 197 platform have gone directly into this new GT500 and will be further enhanced by the new high performance only suspension setting in balance with real traction control, and 650 HP.

The ZR1 and the ZL1 are proof that there is room for big improvements in lap times with better Acceleration, Handling, and Braking with traction management on the same chassis as previous models..We're waiting to see if Ford has actually done this as Chevy has, Erik

[Shurenuff]

Was the Ford GT run done from a stop? I'm assuming it was, especially since that was the norm back then.

Many current runs, including the ZL1's run, are not done from a stop. That obviously makes a significant difference when comparing times.

[eolson]

It looks like it was done from a stop on the video, Erik

[SUX2BU]

Originally Posted by Ltespd

Ford had no problem publishing that the 2013 GT500 had 650hp and 600ftlbs of tq. Or that they had made significant suspension improvements. But what does that mean? Do the improvements work? Give me some times. Give me some numbers. I want 0-60, 1/4 mile, Ring, Leguna Seca etc. Tell us what the car can do.

Originally Posted by Rock36

If b) is true then that might be why Ford hasn't posted any official times, because the 7:32 isn't true. Or if it is, it wasn't backed up with similar numbers.

But until Ford posts a real official time, then I'm not even going to repeat the rumors.

You do realize its a 2013 GT500 you are asking for the numbers when the 2012 ZL1 just barely released their ring time October 2011.

Like others said, I bet Ford is waiting to announce their ring times. Probably around the ZL1 launch date to take all the wind out of their sails just like they did with the 650 Hp announcement.