Chinese components

[DGthe3]

So, instead of trying to become a technological leader your solution would be to just sit back and let the world pass you by, because there isn't enough money in it right now?

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

So, instead of trying to become a technological leader your solution would be to just sit back and let the world pass you by, because there isn't enough money in it right now?

Innovation always pays.

[hot_rod]

Originally Posted by a_Username

Innovation always pays.

Agreed, but we are not a tech leader and show no signs of becoming one anytime in the near future.

...and there in lies a big part of our economic problem.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by dmiller66

Unions are not at fault. American corporate greed is to blame.

So you think unions are free of greed?

Originally Posted by mastertypodemon

Corporate greed also answers to stock holders. Don't forget that problem as well. If the stock holders weren't so damn greedy, then the corporation could be a bit less greedy.

Don't the angellic unions have a lot of their pension plans invested in some of these companies? Without corporate greed the pensions would go bust!

Originally Posted by Blackbean

When a person loses their job to outsourcing, they lose their source of income. Now, they don't have any way to buy those widgets that your company saved a ton on , manufacturing them in China.
No income means less income tax paid into the government,ditto on the corporate tax.Federal revenue falls,and everone in business says "hooray."

When the competition from overseas undercuts the widget price and your company tries to keep the jobs here they eventually go out of business and all those jobs are lost just as if they were sent overseas by an evil CEO. Only the evil stockholders lose all their evil investment in that scenario too (Grandma's Retirement money goes bye-bye). With the whole company out of business, the entire workforce is unemployed as opposed to just the jobs that would go overseas.

Then Katrina,or an oil spill, or social security happens, and you hear,"where is the federal government?"The government borrows money from the Chinese, to pay the bills,then the uproar begins again.

Social Security didn't just "Happen". It was robbed by some greedy politicians. There's no way you can dispute this. This money was stolen for all kinds of pet projects.

Consumer spending equals 70% of our economy.Take the money away from the consumer,and you have a recession.The ONLY people who make out by outsourcing ,are the rich. 90% of all the money is made by 5% of the people.

The Top 1% of earners pay 40% of all income taxes collected.

[syr74]

Once, some time ago, I worked as a contractor managing UAW workers who were employed by a company you would all recognize. If the following offends anyone I regret that, but it would be dishonest for me to say otherwise.....those UAW folks were absolutely the laziest, least productive group of slobs I have ever worked with in my life. Honestly, second place wouldn't even put up a good fight. To this day I am amazed those 'employees' managed to actually get a vehicle to the end of the production line, and please keep in mind the fact that many of my relatives worked for the big three back in the day so I ought to have a soft spot here which I obviously don't.

I should also mention that I am and long have been white collar, and that I am payed very well for what I do. The irony here being that I work my ass off at my job and I have advanced because that effort and success has been recognized. To be blunt, I can understand how Alan Mulally knocked down 45 million recently much easier than I can understand the typical UAW wage because, if Alan can manage to take an ailing Ford and make a profit with UAW workers almost immediately after taking the helm, he is a friggin' corporate magician.

One final note, interestingly enough I am on the cusp of realizing a life long dream, starting my own business doing something I love and have always wanted to do. The business will be a manufacturing operation that will initially employ about 15 people and which will eventually employ, if all things go well, several thousand. My employment compensation plan will be far, far better than anything the big three have in place per person and, amazingly enough, wont break me in the process. (likely in no small part because the UAW wont have anything to do with it)

The kicker here? The items we make will be 100% produced/assembled within the U.S.A from start to finish including the materials we source. Employees will be rewarded for effort and success, if you don't want to work don't waste my time because you wont be around long, and I assure you the way in which I compensate my employees will help me to do this. This manufacturing will take place exclusively in right to work states and if those folks ever decide to go UAW or any other organized union I will shut the whole joint down and start over....believe it.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by syr74

Once, some time ago, I worked as a contractor managing UAW workers who were employed by a company you would all recognize. If the following offends anyone I regret that, but it would be dishonest for me to say otherwise.....those UAW folks were absolutely the laziest, least productive group of slobs I have ever worked with in my life. Honestly, second place wouldn't even put up a good fight. To this day I am amazed those 'employees' managed to actually get a vehicle to the end of the production line, and please keep in mind the fact that many of my relatives worked for the big three back in the day so I ought to have a soft spot here which I obviously don't.

I should also mention that I am and long have been white collar, and that I am payed very well for what I do. The irony here being that I work my ass off at my job and I have advanced because that effort and success has been recognized. To be blunt, I can understand how Alan Mulally knocked down 45 million recently much easier than I can understand the typical UAW wage because, if Alan can manage to take an ailing Ford and make a profit with UAW workers almost immediately after taking the helm, he is a friggin' corporate magician.

One final note, interestingly enough I am on the cusp of realizing a life long dream, starting my own business doing something I love and have always wanted to do. The business will be a manufacturing operation that will initially employ about 15 people and which will eventually employ, if all things go well, several thousand. My employment compensation plan will be far, far better than anything the big three have in place per person and, amazingly enough, wont break me in the process. (likely in no small part because the UAW wont have anything to do with it)

The kicker here? The items we make will be 100% produced/assembled within the U.S.A from start to finish including the materials we source. Employees will be rewarded for effort and success, if you don't want to work don't waste my time because you wont be around long, and I assure you the way in which I compensate my employees will help me to do this. This manufacturing will take place exclusively in right to work states and if those folks ever decide to go UAW or any other organized union I will shut the whole joint down and start over....believe it.

Sounds similar to Henry Ford industrialism philosophy.

[oldfriend]

I just don't get it , what's the problem guys, just pull a one dollar bill from your wallet [made ] yeah in PRC [China] and see what says on the top right hand corner [MADE AND LOANED IN PRC] and this is no joke !!!

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by hot_rod

Agreed, but we are not a tech leader and show no signs of becoming one anytime in the near future.

...and there in lies a big part of our economic problem.

And who do you think is the most innovative country in this world today?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by a_Username

And who do you think is the most innovative country in this world today?

I have to say, we are clearly the technology leader in the world. It's just that when we invent something the first thing we do is call China to check manufacturing costs.

Defense, communications, and that final frontier thing keep us well ahead. It's only the defense stuff that we build here and even that is outsourced.

And lengthy conversations with people who have spent a great deal of time in China tells me they aren't anywhere close.......................yet.

[hot_rod]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I have to say, we are clearly the technology leader in the world. It's just that when we invent something the first thing we do is call China to check manufacturing costs.

Defense, communications, and that final frontier thing keep us well ahead. It's only the defense stuff that we build here and even that is outsourced.

And lengthy conversations with people who have spent a great deal of time in China tells me they aren't anywhere close.......................yet.

>technology leader - I don't know, maybe so. Depends on how you measure it. By some we are,..... some we aren't.

>Manufacturing cost - yep, Rule #1 - you can't beat Walmart or China on cost. That is not going to change anytime in the the near future.

>Defense - yep, want proof? - google "buy America". Legislation that requires manufacturing by American companies for defense and homeland security. Numbers tossed around are 50%, it doesn't matter we can't do it. We don't have the manufacturing capability anymore and it is a national security issue, IMO.

> final frontier - In a year NASA will be a shell of what it once was. The shuttle program is ending. Reported this week, NASA's priority is outreach to the Muslim countries. Huh, WTF?

> China not ready...yet - the key word here is "yet". Some old statistics to show "yet" is getting very close....

*China Express highways:
168 miles in ’89
18,500 in ’03
51,000 in ’08
(vs. U.S. Interstate: 46,500)
When the Silk Road Gets Paved”/Forbes Global/09.04

That is the equivalent of paving 1 Houston a month.

*60,000 New factories in China opened by foreigners/2000-2003/
Edward Gresser, Progressive Policy Institute/Wall Street Journal 09.27.04

That's a new factory every 26 minutes!

The world I have lived in for the last half century plus is undergoing a huge transformation. Chinese components in my Camaro are just part of this change.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by hot_rod

>technology leader - I don't know, maybe so. Depends on how you measure it. By some we are,..... some we aren't.

>Manufacturing cost - yep, Rule #1 - you can't beat Walmart or China on cost. That is not going to change anytime in the the near future.

>Defense - yep, want proof? - google "buy America". Legislation that requires manufacturing by American companies for defense and homeland security. Numbers tossed around are 50%, it doesn't matter we can't do it. We don't have the manufacturing capability anymore and it is a national security issue, IMO.

> final frontier - In a year NASA will be a shell of what it once was. The shuttle program is ending. Reported this week, NASA's priority is outreach to the Muslim countries. Huh, WTF?

> China not ready...yet - the key word here is "yet". Some old statistics to show "yet" is getting very close....

*China Express highways:
168 miles in ’89
18,500 in ’03
51,000 in ’08
(vs. U.S. Interstate: 46,500)
When the Silk Road Gets Paved”/Forbes Global/09.04

That is the equivalent of paving 1 Houston a month.

*60,000 New factories in China opened by foreigners/2000-2003/
Edward Gresser, Progressive Policy Institute/Wall Street Journal 09.27.04

That's a new factory every 26 minutes!

The world I have lived in for the last half century plus is undergoing a huge transformation. Chinese components in my Camaro are just part of this change.

Actually ... China's costs have gone up significantly in recent years and more and more companies are looking to other nations for cheap labour. Some say that Mexico and China are nearly equal on build cost now, but transportation speed and cost from Mexico to North or South America is significantly less than from China.

[bigearl]

Originally Posted by a_Username

And who do you think is the most innovative country in this world today?

Absolutely 100% it's America right now. But that leadership is eroding. Right now, America is doing much of the technological design process but then that manufacturing gets done overseas, like some of the smart phone chips and India for example. This is my worry because we are basically training other countries engineers to take over.

[hot_rod]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Actually ... China's costs have gone up significantly in recent years and more and more companies are looking to other nations for cheap labour. Some say that Mexico and China are nearly equal on build cost now, but transportation speed and cost from Mexico to North or South America is significantly less than from China.

I worked a project a few years back to move a production line to Juarez. First tour of the new facility I asked the ops manager what the labor cost were "...wages and benefits, about $2.00 an hour..." We had a proposal to automated 70-85% of what it took to build the product but competing against a manual operation with that labor cost, we couldn't get any funding. The payback just wasn't there.

Yeah, if transportation logistics permit, I would add India to the list.

[bigearl]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

So, instead of trying to become a technological leader your solution would be to just sit back and let the world pass you by, because there isn't enough money in it right now?

DGthe3:

If that quote is to me, boy you have me ALL wrong. Here's practically an essay I wrote on the subject a week or so ago:

http://camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88962

I am HORRIFIED by what this country has gradually allowed to be done to it. I was particularly set off by watching the practical death of NASA. America is still number 1 in technology and manufacturing. However it's getting tighter every month. America will not hold on to that lead doing commodity manufacturing. The history of America is basically taking a manufacturing process with tons of demand, perfecting it until there is little left to improve- then farming it off to another country. Tobacco, cotton and then textiles, etc.

The problem with the SS badge example is: there's not a lot of technology left there to glean. Items that require cnc machining or complex metallurgy or whatever is what we need to keep here. One of the best examples is that Korea probably has the best civilian carbon fiber technicians on the planet right now. US companies trained Koreans to make carbon fiber sporting goods like tennis rackets, golf shafts, and high end bike frames. Now they have 25 years engineering and manufacturing experience in the field. There's still a ton of development life left in CF and the Koreans are in the best position to capitalize on it based on having a skilled workforce in place.

You can read that other thing I wrote a couple weeks ago if you feel like it, but the brief form is we currently have the best post-graduate on the job training program for engineers and scientists on the planet with our military-industrial complex plus NASA. We are in the process of deliberately tearing those things down brick by brick and handing those bricks to other countries. When you have the chief Administrator of NASA saying:

****"In a far-reaching restatement of goals for the nation’s space agency, NASA administrator Charles Bolden says President Obama has ordered him to pursue three new objectives: to “re-inspire children” to study science and math, to “expand our international relationships,” and to “reach out to the Muslim world.”

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/

Then you are left wondering how we are going to retain leadership. That's not a current administration criticism. Honestly-don't bash Obama with that because this deterioration has been happening for years. It's just now far more obvious. Like 'em or hate 'em we've only had 2 presidents in the last 50 years with a vision bigger than reelection: Reagan and Kennedy.

OMG I'm sorry, I let myself get started again. You should see how my kids look at me when I go off. My day job brings me into contact with a lot of high tech firms and I see and hear a lot of this all day.