Tesla Motors - 100% Electric Vehicle

[alrox]

Originally Posted by Brokinarrow

Right, it's tesla's NEW model that is coming out that is supposed to be around 50k, think it's a crossover model? Something along those lines though, aimed more for families.

I think it's impossible for you to be a Tesla advocate and not even know their very public product plans.

[Brokinarrow]

Originally Posted by alrox

I think it's impossible for you to be a Tesla advocate and not even know their very public product plans.

Who says I'm a Tesla advocate? I just have a fetish for technological advancements

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

There have been countless electric cars produced over the past centure which have come and gone. The energy density of fossil fuels is just so incredibly high that as wasteful as it is there's nothing short of nuclear energy that even comes close.

I hardly think that it's "fear" that has prevented them from repeating bad business decisions. It's intelligence.

I agree. Some of the first automobiles were electric, believe it or not. This is not a 'new' concept...but a perfect example of a developing technology over decades.

Personally...I believe the future is diverse. Many choices to be had...ultimately...like, 50-100 years from now, I firmly believe 100% of new vehicles will be electric. Be it battery-electric, range-extended electric, or Hydrogen Electric...our cars will be moved by electric motors.

I'm still a massive fan of algae-fuel, though...what better way to take the car out of the environmental "problem" than to integrate it into nature's cycle?

[HeHasReturned]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Get back to you with what? Proof that economy type electrics make a lot more sense than electric sports cars and sports sedans?

You claimed that intelligence was what kept automakers from producing electric cars, but the new Nissan Leaf will be the first mass produced electric car under the leadership of an established company, and will most likely be a hit. Therefore, it will have been an intelligent decision to make it, not to stop themselves from making it. Of course, this is based on speculation alone. We'll have to wait and see...

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by HeHasReturned

You claimed that intelligence was what kept automakers from producing electric cars, but the new Nissan Leaf will be the first mass produced electric car under the leadership of an established company, and will most likely be a hit. Therefore, it will have been an intelligent decision to make it, not to stop themselves from making it. Of course, this is based on speculation alone. We'll have to wait and see...

So, Nissan making an electric commuter car is proof that Tesla has motivated the entire auto industry to manufacture electric sports cars?

[Brokinarrow]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

So, Nissan making an electric commuter car is proof that Tesla has motivated the entire auto industry to manufacture electric sports cars?

Not exactly sound reasoning, especially as Tesla is just riding the wave here, not starting it by any means. Like I said, I give props to Tesla for making an electric car lust-worthy

[HeHasReturned]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

So, Nissan making an electric commuter car is proof that Tesla has motivated the entire auto industry to manufacture electric sports cars?

Sigh...I guess I do have to prove you wrong.
No, Tesla didn't motivate anybody to make electric sports cars, they motivated them to make electric cars. Why is the Leaf coming to the US? Why, clearly to complete with the Volt and ride this new wave of electric cars. Why is the Volt coming to the US? Thanks to Bob Lutz. And what motivated Bob Lutz? Here is an article from December of 2007, in which I quote,

The turning point came when tiny Tesla Motors, a Silicon Valley start-up, announced in 2006 that it would produce a speedy electric sports car powered by those same laptop batteries. "That tore it for me," says Lutz. "If some Silicon Valley start-up can solve this equation, no one is going to tell me anymore that it's unfeasible."

http://www.newsweek.com/2007/12/22/b...ctric-car.html

So, you were saying?

Oh, and here's another quote in case you're not convinced

In an August 2009 edition of The New Yorker, Lutz was quoted as saying, "All the geniuses here at General Motors kept saying lithium-ion technology is 10 years away, and Toyota agreed with us -- and boom, along comes Tesla. So I said, 'How come some tiny little California startup, run by guys who know nothing about the car business, can do this, and we can't?' That was the crowbar that helped break up the log jam."

That's straight from the electric car wiki page, I just can't access the New Yorker because I'm not a member

[DGthe3]

GM was making electric cars before Tesla existed (EV1, and other modified production vehicles before that). The Volt isn't an electric, its a hybrid (the gasoline engine is a dead giveaway). Nissan is 1 company, not the whole industry. Bob Lutz is 1 man, not a company. Electric cars are not feasible for the masses. And nobody else (to my knowledge) is making electric sports cars, which is explicitly what Tesla is doing. You're claim still falls drastically short of being true.

[HeHasReturned]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

GM was making electric cars before Tesla existed (EV1, and other modified production vehicles before that). The Volt isn't an electric, its a hybrid (the gasoline engine is a dead giveaway). Nissan is 1 company, not the whole industry. Bob Lutz is 1 man, not a company. Electric cars are not feasible for the masses. And nobody else (to my knowledge) is making electric sports cars, which is explicitly what Tesla is doing. You're claim still falls drastically short of being true.

A. Bob Lutz was the North American chairman, therefore, he is representative of the entire company as far as North America is concerned.
B. The electric cars you have brought up were not mass produced electric cars for the masses. The ev1 you mentioned: 1000 cars produced over 4 years, and those were only leased out. How about the Leaf: 150,000 cars will be produced annually just at the Smyrna plant in Tennessee. It will be the first mass produced electric car for the market. You cannot possibly say that electric cars are not feasible for the masses until you have one that is built for the masses with proper infrastructure. Nissan has partnered with the government to get charging stations built, and estimates range as high as 11,000 charging stations.
You know what, I'll agree with you, it was intelligence that held back automakers from mass producing electric cars. But not in the way you think. You seem to think that automakers were intelligent enough to know not to build electric cars because they weren't "feasible," based off a half-assed attempt by GM and a few other startups. I think in fact that they weren't intelligent enough to figure out how to mass produce electric cars succesfully. Only now has Nissan really solved the problem by lobbying for infrastructure. They needed somebody like Tesla to come along and start something up. It's like Lutz said, "If some Silicon Valley start-up can solve this equation, no one is going to tell me anymore that it's unfeasible."

[5thGenOwner]

Originally Posted by HeHasReturned

A. Bob Lutz was the North American chairman, therefore, he is representative of the entire company as far as North America is concerned.
B. The electric cars you have brought up were not mass produced electric cars for the masses. The ev1 you mentioned: 1000 cars produced over 4 years, and those were only leased out. How about the Leaf: 150,000 cars will be produced annually just at the Smyrna plant in Tennessee. It will be the first mass produced electric car for the market. You cannot possibly say that electric cars are not feasible for the masses until you have one that is built for the masses with proper infrastructure. Nissan has partnered with the government to get charging stations built, and estimates range as high as 11,000 charging stations.
You know what, I'll agree with you, it was intelligence that held back automakers from mass producing electric cars. But not in the way you think. You seem to think that automakers were intelligent enough to know not to build electric cars because they weren't "feasible," based off a half-assed attempt by GM and a few other startups. I think in fact that they weren't intelligent enough to figure out how to mass produce electric cars succesfully. Only now has Nissan really solved the problem by lobbying for infrastructure. They needed somebody like Tesla to come along and start something up. It's like Lutz said, "If some Silicon Valley start-up can solve this equation, no one is going to tell me anymore that it's unfeasible."

Infrastructure commentary...

I'm just curious how the lines at the Service Stations are going to be, when it takes everyone (no less than) 30 minutes to a charge enough... just to get to the next Service Station. Infrastructure or not, practicality of all, all electric vehicles... isn't there. Good luck Nissan, but I wouldn't put my eggs in that basket just yet.

[SuperFly03]

Originally Posted by 5thGenOwner

Infrastructure commentary...

I'm just curious how the lines at the Service Stations are going to be, when it takes everyone (no less than) 30 minutes to a charge enough... just to get to the next Service Station. Infrastructure or not, practicality of all, all electric vehicles... isn't there. Good luck Nissan, but I wouldn't put my eggs in that basket just yet.

Which is why you use it for city use not long distance.

You can drive around all day in the city and still have a charge at the end of the night.

I'd use it as a second car (Tesla Model S... no way in hell I'd ever own a Leaf, I'm straight).

[Mr. Wyndham]

Electric Infrastructure isn't impossible...it would require replaceable batteries...think...flashlights. When the light dies, you put in a new battery -- but if you have rechargeable batteries, they can sit on the counter till you need them.

Originally Posted by HeHasReturned

A. Bob Lutz was the North American chairman, therefore, he is representative of the entire company as far as North America is concerned.
B. The electric cars you have brought up were not mass produced electric cars for the masses. The ev1 you mentioned: 1000 cars produced over 4 years, and those were only leased out. How about the Leaf: 150,000 cars will be produced annually just at the Smyrna plant in Tennessee. It will be the first mass produced electric car for the market. You cannot possibly say that electric cars are not feasible for the masses until you have one that is built for the masses with proper infrastructure. Nissan has partnered with the government to get charging stations built, and estimates range as high as 11,000 charging stations.
You know what, I'll agree with you, it was intelligence that held back automakers from mass producing electric cars. But not in the way you think. You seem to think that automakers were intelligent enough to know not to build electric cars because they weren't "feasible," based off a half-assed attempt by GM and a few other startups. I think in fact that they weren't intelligent enough to figure out how to mass produce electric cars succesfully. Only now has Nissan really solved the problem by lobbying for infrastructure. They needed somebody like Tesla to come along and start something up. It's like Lutz said, "If some Silicon Valley start-up can solve this equation, no one is going to tell me anymore that it's unfeasible."

I'm not going to respond point by point...but I will say you strike me as intent on believing what you WANT to believe...rather than what's actually true. All your "proof" is debatable at best...and I have to agree with DGthe3's assessment of the situation.

Battery technology has developed exponentially over the past decade...since the EV1. None of the cars today could have existed back then...the EV1 proved that...it was impractical, expensive, and underperforming...so it isn't very fair to start drawing a timeline and attach any sort of pioneer label on one company...

[Nycteus]

Originally Posted by Tesla Motors

- 160, 230, or 300 mile range pack
- 45 minute QuickCharge
- 1 minute Battery Swap

Not exactly sure what "45 Minute QuickCharge means," but the 1 minute battery swap may be a proposed solution to charging stations. My guess is to think of a propane tank (gas grill), you can either exchange for a new battery or drop off for a service/fill.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by HeHasReturned

A. Bob Lutz was the North American chairman, therefore, he is representative of the entire company as far as North America is concerned.
B. The electric cars you have brought up were not mass produced electric cars for the masses. The ev1 you mentioned: 1000 cars produced over 4 years, and those were only leased out. How about the Leaf: 150,000 cars will be produced annually just at the Smyrna plant in Tennessee. It will be the first mass produced electric car for the market. You cannot possibly say that electric cars are not feasible for the masses until you have one that is built for the masses with proper infrastructure. Nissan has partnered with the government to get charging stations built, and estimates range as high as 11,000 charging stations.
You know what, I'll agree with you, it was intelligence that held back automakers from mass producing electric cars. But not in the way you think. You seem to think that automakers were intelligent enough to know not to build electric cars because they weren't "feasible," based off a half-assed attempt by GM and a few other startups. I think in fact that they weren't intelligent enough to figure out how to mass produce electric cars succesfully. Only now has Nissan really solved the problem by lobbying for infrastructure. They needed somebody like Tesla to come along and start something up. It's like Lutz said, "If some Silicon Valley start-up can solve this equation, no one is going to tell me anymore that it's unfeasible."

Lutz has been known to say things that are not representative of GM's corporate views, such as "man made global warming is a crock of sh*t". I take his words as his personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less. Furthermore, according to the quote you provided he said "no one is going to tell me that its unfeasible" indicating that it is a personal reply. He did not say "no one is going to tell us that its unfeasible" which would mean he as speaking for GM. Its a rather subtle, but very important difference.

Nissan can build as many Leaf's as they like, but that won't prove its feasible. People have to buy them to prove that. And regardless, you can't seem to figure out that I've made a distinction between the good idea of electric commuter vehicles and dumb idea of electric sports cars. I'll quote myself for you:

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Electrics have their place, but Tesla only seems interested in using them in ways they're poorly suited. Small urban cars? Great. Never go too fast or too far so a small battery and low power (yet high torque) motor are fine. The low speed acceleration would shine going from stop light to stop light in traffic. And when stopped for those lights, it uses practically no energy. Its nearly ideal for use as an urban commuter vehicles. But sports cars? Not so much.

In my mind, for Tesla to have "motivated the entire industry" like you claimed they've done, we should expect an electric GT-R from Nissan this year, not the Leaf. And an electric Corvette from GM (instead of the Cruze based hybrid Volt), plus every other auto maker releasing electric sports cars either now or in the near future. See, Tesla makes electric sports cars. For the entire industry to be motivated by them, the entire industry has to be making, or planning on making, cars to compete directly with the offerings from Tesla. And that has no chance of happening for the foreseeable future. Nissan might motivate the industry to offer usher in a wave of electric commuter cars. But even the Insight didn't motivate everyone to make small, parallel strong hybrids. Neither did the more successful Prius. Honda and Toyota pretty much had the market to themselves. So I'm skeptical that a more expensive, less versatile electric from Nissan could have a larger influence than the Prius and Insight. And if the Leaf can't do it, there is no hope that Model S can do it.