Ford's Answer to the Caprice: Taurus Police Interceptor

[syr74]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Uhh ... I only made 1 of those posts

Yeah, sorry 'bout that. I fixed the quotes to reflect the op correctly.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Anyway, police gear adds a LOT of weight. I've heard that the Crown Vic gets something like 400 lbs worth of stuff added in the conversion to police duty, the electronics are one of the biggest culprits. The SHO comes in at a little under 4400 lbs to start with.

The weight difference overall between the the Interceptor and the Caprice should be noticeably less than the weight difference between a Taurus SHO and a Pontiac G8 since the SHO comes with a lot more stuff standard than did the G8 GT, and the Caprice is obviously larger than the G8 was. Put more simply, Interceptor has more to gain, in terms of weight loss, by shedding standard equipment and there is a size increase from G8 GT to Caprice that doesn't exist for the Ford. Typically the difference in curb weight between a SHO and a G8 GT is about 400lb, if the Interceptor loses 100lb and the Caprice gains 100lb due to the increase in size we could end up with two cars that are 200lb apart, which isn't much of a difference and this is only with a 100lb swing for each car.

Is that going to happen? We obviously don't know yet, but ultimately that is really the point I am trying to make. Yes, I expect the Interceptor to be a little heavier than the Caprice, but there is very good reason to believe that the difference in weight may not be nearly as much as some of the folks on here seem to think it will.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Profitability, Crown Vics cost next to nothing for Ford to build. The last update they had was 1998 and that was a refresh not a redesign. Fundamentally they haven't changed since they were introduced in 1992. All the engineering costs have been paid for years ago. Its no contest compared to the SHO about which one would have the better margins. I would guess that the main reason they're discontinuing the Crown Vic is because the equipment at the factory is probably at the end of its life.

Actually, there is definitely a contest in terms of margin. The continuing production of the Crown Vic PI would require that the entire St. Thomas facility remain open, switching the Interceptor to the Taurus platform allows Ford to shutter an entire plant and simply produce more of a newer product they were going to build at the Chicago plant anyway in it's place.

Better utilization of the one facility and the ability to shelve another? The drop in overhead by making this switch is obviously huge. granted, if Ford had something else to build in St. Thomas it might be a workable proposition, but as it is Ford is probably going to make more money on this new Interceptor than they did on the outgoing model even if sales drop by half.

[TheCaptain]

I think a new Taurus would be a great replacement for the Crown Vic, and the upcoming Caprice would be a great market takeover in the PPV segment.

You talk to any cops that got to drive (or still get to drive) the old 9C1 Caprice's, and they almost all love it over the current Crown Vic, and that's a fifteen year technology difference! The Charger is the only one that (sometimes) is better then the Caprice, in many officer's opinions. Mainly because it is everything the Caprice was, just newer... but with more Dodge in it...

I'm all for seeing new gen PPV's on the road, but i definately can't wait for the Caprice to be available to the public. (be it auction or whatever)

[ViperTomcat]

As a real world patrol cruiser..the SHO is a nightmare that should be killed with fire.

As an administrative vehicle for desk drivers who need to look good and have some get up and go..the SHO will be fine.

In the real world Cops love:
V8 Engine
RWD
Stability and performance
Interior Space
Balance

The Caprice and Charger both have all of them in spades..the SHO doesnt. Real world reliability is a problem also, because cop cars are driving hard and put away wet. On average a Hemi Charger cop car is just about done after 70,000 miles of serious police driving.

Thats with a serious, NA V8. Imagine the chaos a twin turbo application would throw in there? You need a police system to be easy enough to turn wrenches on, take it in, plug it into a computer, clear codes and throw on a tune. No messing with turbos or SC's.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by coolman

No, I have to claim ignorance here. I didn't know the caprice was coming back as a police car with the v-8. I've been comparing SHO to the Crown vic and the impala. I think bringing the caprice back with the ls motor will really hurt fords plans to offer up the SHO. Anybody got pic's and spec of the new caprice and will it be offered to the public.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45861

[Scrappy Doo]

Notice they didn't put a photo of the Caprice with a cage in it... Wonder how much room there is from the back of the cage to the front of the backseat. That's an important demension.

As far as costs go, we got some new crown vics in yesterday, MSRP was $29,415. I am sure the state bid was around $27,000 or so.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Scrappy Doo

Notice they didn't put a photo of the Caprice with a cage in it... Wonder how much room there is from the back of the cage to the front of the backseat. That's an important demension.

As far as costs go, we got some new crown vics in yesterday, MSRP was $29,415. I am sure the state bid was around $27,000 or so.

Rear seats...

[ViperTomcat]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Rear seats...

A production version will have more room as the hard plastic "seats" for the cage arent nearly as large as domestic seats.

[TheCaptain]

It's not like the Crown Vic's had award winning back seat space. Believe me.
Besides, it's a cop car, you're bad, you go in the back seat to be punished. Not live up life.

[SleepWarz]

Originally Posted by TheCaptain

It's not like the Crown Vic's had award winning back seat space. Believe me.
Besides, it's a cop car, you're bad, you go in the back seat to be punished. Not live up life.

Or the other half of the time when your in the wrong place at the wrong time....

Not always just cause right.

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by ViperTomcat

As a real world patrol cruiser..the SHO is a nightmare that should be killed with fire.

As an administrative vehicle for desk drivers who need to look good and have some get up and go..the SHO will be fine.

In the real world Cops love:
V8 Engine
RWD
Stability and performance
Interior Space
Balance

The Caprice and Charger both have all of them in spades..the SHO doesnt. Real world reliability is a problem also, because cop cars are driving hard and put away wet. On average a Hemi Charger cop car is just about done after 70,000 miles of serious police driving.

Thats with a serious, NA V8. Imagine the chaos a twin turbo application would throw in there? You need a police system to be easy enough to turn wrenches on, take it in, plug it into a computer, clear codes and throw on a tune. No messing with turbos or SC's.

How much more maintenence/cost is the turbo v6 vs the v8?

[Scrappy Doo]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Rear seats...

Originally Posted by ViperTomcat

A production version will have more room as the hard plastic "seats" for the cage arent nearly as large as domestic seats.

Thanks guys. There may actually be room back there.

[rowerybo]

West Palm PD is supposedly changing from the crown vics to the new chevys because of the ending. They had ford taurus's and hated them. They constantly needed work or new parts and did not last as long as the crown vics. I assume they will purchase at least one new ford to see if it has been improved for long term use but they do intend to move on to chevy.

[meanmike]

I bet in the northern state's the SHO will sell great. AWD>snow I would bet they eat them up.

[truth411]

Originally Posted by syr74

I'm honestly curious to see you're reasoning here since I am not seeing this at all.

A Ford Taurus SHO starts just under 38k. In the transition to EB powered Interceptor status you logically start with taking into consideration the fact that the Taurus SHO is loaded to the gills with tech and luxury features even in standard trim. The aluminum trim, the ambient lighting, the 10 way power driver and passenger seats in leather, the HID projector lamps, SYNC, the premium sound system, push button start, the rear camera, the heated mirrors, the 19" alloy wheels.....Interceptor doesn't need to, and almost certainly wont, come standard with any of that and that is just a quick snapshot of what the car will be missing compared to a standard SHO. To put this into perspective, the price jump from a base Taurus SE model to a Limited model is 6500 dollars and the only difference between those two cars are luxury and tech features like the ones mentioned above. Throw in the fact that Interceptor are going to have a lot fewer options combinations and cost should get even lower.

The Caprice gets a bit trickier. A base Pontiac G8, which is the only decent reference point we have for the Caprice , started at just under 32k and to be blunt didn't have nearly as many features standard as the Taurus does, which means there is a lot less to be gained here by taking stuff off of the car. (can't take off things that aren't standard to begin with) Factor in the reality that the exchange rate has shifted in a manner not in favor of importing from Australia since the G8 was initially offered, and the fact that the Caprice is actually a rehashed Statesman which is a more expensive basic platform than the Commodore is, and I'm not seeing where the inherent price advantage is going to be coming from here.

Even worse, the buzz has always indicated that G8 was basically bargain priced from the outset in an attempt to build interest. We don't have any hard evidence of the same for obvious reasons, not company is inclined to come out and say 'we screwed up'. Still, Zeta does always seem to be the program that gets cut the quickest and the hardest when the difficult decisions have to be made at GM, and since the epa explanation Lutz gave is obviously hogwash we end up in a situation where the whole 'Zeta is not a cheap platform' theory gains some traction.

Ultimately my point is that we have no reason whatsoever to believe that Caprice is a cheap proposition. In fact, I would be impressed if GM can offer this car for the same base price as a Pontiac G8 GT and expect to make any money at all.

That said, I agree that Ford wont have the volume with the Taurus they did with the Crown Vic based Interceptor, but I don't think matching that cars volume is the goal and I'm willing to bet the Taurus based Interceptor would be profitable at a much lower take rate than is the CV based piece they are producing now.



Interceptor is virtually assured to weigh less than the SHO. Yes, the Interceptor uses steel wheels and has a unique front subframe, but the sheer mass of luxury and tech removed from the car for cruiser duty is going to be worth a few hundred pounds easily. I would take a lot of front subframe and some seriously heavy wheels to offset what this car is losing in terms of luxury items.



Possibly, but is that going to offset the higher cost of entry the Caprice is going to have to muster to be as profitable? If there is a company with an inherent advantage here it's Dodge, not GM. And even they have some issues to overcome since the first gen Charger was not exactly a durability standout.

AAAHHH syr74, Still waving the Ford banner I see, Just makeing up stuff as usual. What are these mass luxury equipment that will cut wieght 3 or 4 hundred pounds??? Other than, items like the stereo and power seats (the same can be said for the caprice aswell) what else?? I dont think Ford's 'SYNC' weighs that much.