Electric Vehicles

[FarmerFran]

He just stated he would roll back mandates and drill... we shall see.

Ya'll have to remember he is a billionaire and friends with billionaires, like, Musk who makes a bit of money off EVs.

So my guess is you will see all of them "tip toeing through tulips"

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

He just stated he would roll back mandates and drill... we shall see.

Ya'll have to remember he is a billionaire and friends with billionaires, like, Musk who makes a bit of money off EVs.

So my guess is you will see all of them "tip toeing through tulips"

I’m very aware of what he said. He says a lot of things. A few of them are even true. But I have yet to see the EO that strikes down the evil, yet mythical mandates that nobody on this board seems to be able to quote directly or show a link to. Hard to issue an EO to remove what doesn’t exist.

Now, he CAN start the process of ending the $7,500 incentives and quite frankly I was certain he would have done that by now. Day 1 actually. But he hasn’t and I really don’t understand why that is. This from today’s Chevrolet.com page. Shows the incentive is still in place.

[Mr_Draco]

He hasn't done anything to actually get rid of the "mandate".

He signed an order to seek ways to eliminate the tax credit. Ordered the EPA to reduce the fleet average since it forces manufacturers to produce more EV's and reduce ICE's production but he didn't specify by how much. EPA could lower it by 1 mpg and be compliant. And he ordered the EPA to repeal all waivers granted to states that allow them to have stricter emissions than federal guidelines, and ones that allow a state to ban the purchase of new ICE's. Though the EPA has already announced that they will not comply.

EO's are basically fancy memo's and hold no power. To achieve these things, he will have to go through Congress.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’m very aware of what he said. He says a lot of things. A few of them are even true. But I have yet to see the EO that strikes down the evil, yet mythical mandates that nobody on this board seems to be able to quote directly or show a link to. Hard to issue an EO to remove what doesn’t exist.

Now, he CAN start the process of ending the $7,500 incentives and quite frankly I was certain he would have done that by now. Day 1 actually. But he hasn’t and I really don’t understand why that is. This from today’s Chevrolet.com page. Shows the incentive is still in place.

Martin gettin' spicy after the last few weeks The next four years won't be as bad as you think in the same way that the last 4 weren't as great. We'll be fine.

I would recommend in general to purchase the EV now if you want one that's eligible and want to get some of your tax payer money back in the form of the incentive while doing so.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’m very aware of what he said. He says a lot of things. A few of them are even true. But I have yet to see the EO that strikes down the evil, yet mythical mandates that nobody on this board seems to be able to quote directly or show a link to. Hard to issue an EO to remove what doesn’t exist.

Now, he CAN start the process of ending the $7,500 incentives and quite frankly I was certain he would have done that by now. Day 1 actually. But he hasn’t and I really don’t understand why that is. This from today’s Chevrolet.com page. Shows the incentive is still in place.

My response was directed at @kevint

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Mr_Draco

He hasn't done anything to actually get rid of the "mandate".

He signed an order to seek ways to eliminate the tax credit. Ordered the EPA to reduce the fleet average since it forces manufacturers to produce more EV's and reduce ICE's production but he didn't specify by how much. EPA could lower it by 1 mpg and be compliant. And he ordered the EPA to repeal all waivers granted to states that allow them to have stricter emissions than federal guidelines, and ones that allow a state to ban the purchase of new ICE's. Though the EPA has already announced that they will not comply.

EO's are basically fancy memo's and hold no power. To achieve these things, he will have to go through Congress.

Agreed. EOs are fancy memos that hold no power. But in a case where both houses of Congress are aligned with POTUS they can because Congress can make them actionable. Having a small majority in the House makes it a bit more difficult because it only takes one or two who don’t want to go along.

Totally correct about the EPA stuff too. If there are mandates in place it is the mandates defining their fuel economy targets. They can still invest in expensive techs like Gas Particulate Filters, dual mode injection and more intense EGR to achieve the specs. Or they can do like Toyota and go all in on hybrids.

Fact of the matter is, in order to meet the 2027 targets, automakers have already been dialed in on the techs they are going to use and which vehicles they’re going to add them to. From proof-of-concept to tech-on-the-road can take 5-7 years. So stuff planned to address 2027 emissions targets has already been developed, proofed, productionized, tooling dollars spent and supplier contracts in place. It won’t be easy for OEMs to just say “guess I can push that out a couple years”. No doubt for some of the less impactful techs they will, but for the more embedded techs they’ll just go ahead and roll it out. That’s not entirely a bad thing. Stellantis for example, could benefit from the delay to get caught up to where most of the rest of the industry is wrt fuel economy and emissions.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by snizzle

Martin gettin' spicy after the last few weeks The next four years won't be as bad as you think in the same way that the last 4 weren't as great. We'll be fine.

I would recommend in general to purchase the EV now if you want one that's eligible and want to get some of your tax payer money back in the form of the incentive while doing so.

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

My response was directed at @kevint

My apologies folks. That sounded different in my head when I read it back. Wasn’t coming at you Fran. Pretty much agreeing with you.

And snizzle, no doubt we’ll be fine. We survived ‘16-‘20, but pretty much as was the case then, I expect my forehead to go numb from all the face-palming I’ll be doing.

[90503]

Here's a puff-piece downplaying the Trump's Executive Order. The article, as do many others, claim there is no EV mandate even though they concede the cumulative effect of all previous actions over the years making ICE harder to produce with emissions and the 2027 standards for ICE are already baked in.

The EV makers can now claim there is no turning back. Yes, the bureaucratic regulations and tyranny over the years have done their work well. The automotive industry has apparently surrendered to, and become dependent on, government largess and regulations. Make fun of "there is no EV mandate being eliminated" all you want, even though the ongoing and previous rules have created just that.

The part that I find humorous is the last lines where they still claim that EVs will become less expensive over time...We've been hearing this for how many years now since EV productions started. There is no reason to make EVs less expensive once ICE is no longer available. I think automakers are making a huge mistake in disregarding the years ahead of cheap energy and low gasoline prices, elimination of punitive emissions and mileage standards.

Stay tuned!


What Trump's Executive Order Means for Electric Vehicles
Story by Mike De Socio • 22h • 3 min read

An executive order from President Donald Trump is targeting federal policies that promote the transition from gasoline-powered vehicles to electric vehicle
President Donald Trump signed a flurry of executive orders during his first week in office, giving the impression that he took sweeping action on many of his campaign promises. But as critics have been quick to point out: Executive orders can't change the law, and only have power to direct government officials and agencies.

So what should you make of Trump's executive order on "Unleashing American Energy," which promises to end government support of electric vehicles?

"It says a lot, it's blustery … It purports to do a huge range of things," many of which an executive order can't do, said Ted Lamm, associate director at the Center for Law, Energy & the Environment at the University of California, Berkeley.

What will the order actually mean for you the next time you go to buy an electric vehicle? Here's what the experts say you can expect going forward.

What does the executive order say about EVs?
The phrase that sticks most is, "It is the policy of the United States … to eliminate the 'electric vehicle (EV) mandate' and promote true consumer choice." That paragraph goes on to call for the "elimination of unfair subsidies and other ill-conceived government-imposed market distortions that favor EVs."


Local auto expert, drivers respond to President Trump's electric vehicle action
The thing is, there is no federal EV mandate.

Trump's use of the phrase "electric vehicle mandate" probably refers to a mix of three things: The $7,500 EV tax credit for consumers; the EPA emissions standards that aim to phase in more EVs and more efficient combustion vehicles; and tax credits that incentive domestic manufacturing of batteries and EVs.

None of those things, however, amount to a "mandate," which implies that consumers and automakers have no choice but to make and drive EVs.

How much of this can an executive order actually do?
According to experts, many of the executive order's claims would require an act of Congress to accomplish. Here's a breakdown of what the order can (and can't) accomplish on its own:

Of course, even the actions that are within the power of an executive order can be (and likely will be) challenged in court.

What does this mean for me as a consumer?
At the end of the day, this executive order creates more confusion than it does tangible impacts for consumers, experts said.

"It's clearly just a rhetoric piece," said Aubrey Gunnels, CEO and co-founder at 3V Infrastructure, an investment firm that supports EV charging infrastructure.

That said, the new administration's policies could have some tangible impacts. Here's what to expect:

If you bought an EV in 2024 and are planning to claim the EV tax credit this tax season, you should be OK, according to Lamm. "It would be pretty shocking" for Trump to go against Congress and attempt to block the IRS from issuing those credits, Lamm said.

If you're planning to buy an EV in 2025, the EV tax credit may or may not be available for you. As of now, it still is, but Trump could ask Congress to repeal that provision of the Inflation Reduction Act in the future. But Lamm says even that is unlikely. "Getting rid of it is politically pretty costly," he said.

The biggest effect on EVs would happen if the tax policies are eliminated, which would require an act of Congress, according to the energy consulting firm Wood Mackenzie. "This is yet to be determined, but Wood Mackenzie does expect any remaining EV credits to contain stricter eligibility criteria around critical mineral sourcing to promote mineral security," said Max Reid, principal analyst at the firm,

A weakening of tailpipe emissions standards or changes to California's ability to enforce its own standards could also weaken EV adoption, according to WoodMac.

"While the extent of subsidy cuts and details on new emissions norms are unclear, we expect the trajectory of EV sales to be slower than previous forecasts," Reid said.

Experts say that these actions may slow the transition to EVs, but in the long run they won't stop it altogether.

"The momentum in the industry has already surpassed the turning point," said Virginia Klausmeier, founder and CEO at Sylvatex, a material tech company that works on EV batteries.

Plus, if the consumer tax credits did get repealed, EVs are on track to get cheaper over the coming years and become the more affordable option even without government discounts, Gunnels said.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

Here's a puff-piece downplaying the Trump's Executive Order. The article, as do many others, claim there is no EV mandate even though they concede the cumulative effect of all previous actions over the years making ICE harder to produce with emissions and the 2027 standards for ICE are already baked in.

Gee…where have I heard that before?

Originally Posted by 90503

The EV makers can now claim there is no turning back. Yes, the bureaucratic regulations and tyranny over the years have done their work well. The automotive industry has apparently surrendered to, and become dependent on, government largess and re gulations. Make fun of "there is no EV mandate being eliminated" all you want, even though the ongoing and previous rules have created just that.

The part that I find humorous is the last lines where they still claim that EVs will become less expensive over time...We've been hearing this for how many years now since EV productions started. There is no reason to make EVs less expensive once ICE is no longer available. I think automakers are making a huge mistake in disregarding the years ahead of cheap energy and low gasoline prices, elimination of punitive emissions and mileage standards.

Stay tuned!


What Trump's Executive Order Means for Electric Vehicles
Story by Mike De Socio • 22h • 3 min read

An executive order from President Donald Trump is targeting federal policies that promote the transition from gasoline-powered vehicles to electric vehicle
President Donald Trump signed a flurry of executive orders during his first week in office, giving the impression that he took sweeping action on many of his campaign promises. But as critics have been quick to point out: Executive orders can't change the law, and only have power to direct government officials and agencies.

So what should you make of Trump's executive order on "Unleashing American Energy," which promises to end government support of electric vehicles?

"It says a lot, it's blustery … It purports to do a huge range of things," many of which an executive order can't do, said Ted Lamm, associate director at the Center for Law, Energy & the Environment at the University of California, Berkeley.

What will the order actually mean for you the next time you go to buy an electric vehicle? Here's what the experts say you can expect going forward.

What does the executive order say about EVs?
The phrase that sticks most is, "It is the policy of the United States … to eliminate the 'electric vehicle (EV) mandate' and promote true consumer choice." That paragraph goes on to call for the "elimination of unfair subsidies and other ill-conceived government-imposed market distortions that favor EVs."


Local auto expert, drivers respond to President Trump's electric vehicle action
The thing is, there is no federal EV mandate.

Trump's use of the phrase "electric vehicle mandate" probably refers to a mix of three things: The $7,500 EV tax credit for consumers; the EPA emissions standards that aim to phase in more EVs and more efficient combustion vehicles; and tax credits that incentive domestic manufacturing of batteries and EVs.

None of those things, however, amount to a "mandate," which implies that consumers and automakers have no choice but to make and drive EVs.

How much of this can an executive order actually do?
According to experts, many of the executive order's claims would require an act of Congress to accomplish. Here's a breakdown of what the order can (and can't) accomplish on its own:

Of course, even the actions that are within the power of an executive order can be (and likely will be) challenged in court.

What does this mean for me as a consumer?
At the end of the day, this executive order creates more confusion than it does tangible impacts for consumers, experts said.

"It's clearly just a rhetoric piece," said Aubrey Gunnels, CEO and co-founder at 3V Infrastructure, an investment firm that supports EV charging infrastructure.

That said, the new administration's policies could have some tangible impacts. Here's what to expect:

If you bought an EV in 2024 and are planning to claim the EV tax credit this tax season, you should be OK, according to Lamm. "It would be pretty shocking" for Trump to go against Congress and attempt to block the IRS from issuing those credits, Lamm said.

If you're planning to buy an EV in 2025, the EV tax credit may or may not be available for you. As of now, it still is, but Trump could ask Congress to repeal that provision of the Inflation Reduction Act in the future. But Lamm says even that is unlikely. "Getting rid of it is politically pretty costly," he said.

The biggest effect on EVs would happen if the tax policies are eliminated, which would require an act of Congress, according to the energy consulting firm Wood Mackenzie. "This is yet to be determined, but Wood Mackenzie does expect any remaining EV credits to contain stricter eligibility criteria around critical mineral sourcing to promote mineral security," said Max Reid, principal analyst at the firm,

A weakening of tailpipe emissions standards or changes to California's ability to enforce its own standards could also weaken EV adoption, according to WoodMac.

"While the extent of subsidy cuts and details on new emissions norms are unclear, we expect the trajectory of EV sales to be slower than previous forecasts," Reid said.

Experts say that these actions may slow the transition to EVs, but in the long run they won't stop it altogether.

"The momentum in the industry has already surpassed the turning point," said Virginia Klausmeier, founder and CEO at Sylvatex, a material tech company that works on EV batteries.

Plus, if the consumer tax credits did get repealed, EVs are on track to get cheaper over the coming years and become the more affordable option even without government discounts, Gunnels said.

Most of that sounds like something I would say. Go figure.

[Mr_Draco]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

EVs are fancy memos that hold no power.

We know most EV's have no power but what about EO's?

[Martinjlm]

I think I’ve mentioned here before that the Inflation Reduction Act is waaay bigger than just EVs. If the IRA was a big dog, the EV portion is the fluffy tail at the end of it. If POTUS decided he wanted to cut off the tail but still leave the dog standing he’d still meet with some resistance from within his own party. There are (3) key EV related pieces to the legislation.

1. The $7,500 consumer credit that way too many people think is the entire IRA. Congressional action as well as direction from the Treasury are required to remove this. It will probably happen, but when?
2. Battery production incentives based on kWh of batteries produced. Idea is to have batteries produced in the US for EVs sold in the US instead of having them shipped in from China. Adds a lot of high paying jobs. Mostly in Red states. Could get cut, but there may (should) be opposition from some of the congressional reps in the states currently receiving the funding and the jobs.
3. Federal incentives to build battery plants and electric vehicle assembly plants. This is gonna be hard to get rid of. Please see the chart below. Should also note that vehicle assembly plants tend to have an incubator effect in the localities where they locate. Job support is in the range of 7 external jobs for every 1 assembly plant job. This extends to non-automotive “support” systems like bars and restaurants, barbershops and salons, and other service business that support the people that work at the plants and the supplier factories that also pop up around the vehicle assembly plants.

So here is how the spending of IRA funds for the 3rd item looks so far… Some congressional reps would be shooting themselves in the foot to support ending this part of the IRA.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Mr_Draco

We know most EV's have no power but what about EO's?

That crow would be tastier with Tabasco.

[genxer]

Originally Posted by 90503

Here's a puff-piece downplaying the Trump's Executive Order. The article, as do many others, claim there is no EV mandate even though they concede the cumulative effect of all previous actions over the years making ICE harder to produce with emissions and the 2027 standards for ICE are already baked in.

The EV makers can now claim there is no turning back. Yes, the bureaucratic regulations and tyranny over the years have done their work well. The automotive industry has apparently surrendered to, and become dependent on, government largess and regulations. Make fun of "there is no EV mandate being eliminated" all you want, even though the ongoing and previous rules have created just that.

The part that I find humorous is the last lines where they still claim that EVs will become less expensive over time...We've been hearing this for how many years now since EV productions started. There is no reason to make EVs less expensive once ICE is no longer available. I think automakers are making a huge mistake in disregarding the years ahead of cheap energy and low gasoline prices, elimination of punitive emissions and mileage standards.

Stay tuned!


What Trump's Executive Order Means for Electric Vehicles
Story by Mike De Socio • 22h • 3 min read

An executive order from President Donald Trump is targeting federal policies that promote the transition from gasoline-powered vehicles to electric vehicle
President Donald Trump signed a flurry of executive orders during his first week in office, giving the impression that he took sweeping action on many of his campaign promises. But as critics have been quick to point out: Executive orders can't change the law, and only have power to direct government officials and agencies.

So what should you make of Trump's executive order on "Unleashing American Energy," which promises to end government support of electric vehicles?

"It says a lot, it's blustery … It purports to do a huge range of things," many of which an executive order can't do, said Ted Lamm, associate director at the Center for Law, Energy & the Environment at the University of California, Berkeley.

What will the order actually mean for you the next time you go to buy an electric vehicle? Here's what the experts say you can expect going forward.

What does the executive order say about EVs?
The phrase that sticks most is, "It is the policy of the United States … to eliminate the 'electric vehicle (EV) mandate' and promote true consumer choice." That paragraph goes on to call for the "elimination of unfair subsidies and other ill-conceived government-imposed market distortions that favor EVs."


Local auto expert, drivers respond to President Trump's electric vehicle action
The thing is, there is no federal EV mandate.

Trump's use of the phrase "electric vehicle mandate" probably refers to a mix of three things: The $7,500 EV tax credit for consumers; the EPA emissions standards that aim to phase in more EVs and more efficient combustion vehicles; and tax credits that incentive domestic manufacturing of batteries and EVs.

None of those things, however, amount to a "mandate," which implies that consumers and automakers have no choice but to make and drive EVs.

How much of this can an executive order actually do?
According to experts, many of the executive order's claims would require an act of Congress to accomplish. Here's a breakdown of what the order can (and can't) accomplish on its own:

Of course, even the actions that are within the power of an executive order can be (and likely will be) challenged in court.

What does this mean for me as a consumer?
At the end of the day, this executive order creates more confusion than it does tangible impacts for consumers, experts said.

"It's clearly just a rhetoric piece," said Aubrey Gunnels, CEO and co-founder at 3V Infrastructure, an investment firm that supports EV charging infrastructure.

That said, the new administration's policies could have some tangible impacts. Here's what to expect:

If you bought an EV in 2024 and are planning to claim the EV tax credit this tax season, you should be OK, according to Lamm. "It would be pretty shocking" for Trump to go against Congress and attempt to block the IRS from issuing those credits, Lamm said.

If you're planning to buy an EV in 2025, the EV tax credit may or may not be available for you. As of now, it still is, but Trump could ask Congress to repeal that provision of the Inflation Reduction Act in the future. But Lamm says even that is unlikely. "Getting rid of it is politically pretty costly," he said.

The biggest effect on EVs would happen if the tax policies are eliminated, which would require an act of Congress, according to the energy consulting firm Wood Mackenzie. "This is yet to be determined, but Wood Mackenzie does expect any remaining EV credits to contain stricter eligibility criteria around critical mineral sourcing to promote mineral security," said Max Reid, principal analyst at the firm,

A weakening of tailpipe emissions standards or changes to California's ability to enforce its own standards could also weaken EV adoption, according to WoodMac.

"While the extent of subsidy cuts and details on new emissions norms are unclear, we expect the trajectory of EV sales to be slower than previous forecasts," Reid said.

Experts say that these actions may slow the transition to EVs, but in the long run they won't stop it altogether.

"The momentum in the industry has already surpassed the turning point," said Virginia Klausmeier, founder and CEO at Sylvatex, a material tech company that works on EV batteries.

Plus, if the consumer tax credits did get repealed, EVs are on track to get cheaper over the coming years and become the more affordable option even without government discounts, Gunnels said.

Thanks for the post.
Aubrey Gunnels and Virginia Klausmeier, the two World Economic Forum compromised people quoted, say that BEVs don't really need the help.

The untenable emissions burden on combustion can be tossed!
The domestic incentives can be dropped! at least swapped for tariffs.

The magic batteries are just around the corner, just like that hot nurse at the hospital! Some words of wisdom I'm reminded of:
-Confucious say, man who want pretty nurse, must be patient.
-Confucious say, man with hand in pocket, feel cocky all day.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by genxer

Thanks for the post.
Aubrey Gunnels and Virginia Klausmeier, the two World Economic Forum compromised people quoted, say that BEVs don't really need the help.

The untenable emissions burden on combustion can be tossed!
The domestic incentives can be dropped! at least swapped for tariffs.

The magic batteries are just around the corner, just like that hot nurse at the hospital! Some words of wisdom I'm reminded of:
-Confucious say, man who want pretty nurse, must be patient.
-Confucious say, man with hand in pocket, feel cocky all day.

Or my personal favorite… The mind is like a parachute…works best when it’s open.