Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents (WSJ)

[bigearl]

I had a feeling this might happen. If you know any cops or insurance adjusters, you'll hear that people SAY the car accelerated "on it's own" pretty frequently. Especially older people who end up going through store fronts.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...NewsCollection

"The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that at the time of the crashes, throttles were wide open and the brakes were not engaged, people familiar with the findings said.

The results suggest that some drivers who said their Toyota and Lexus vehicles surged out of control were mistakenly flooring the accelerator when they intended to jam on the brakes. But the findings don't exonerate Toyota from two known issues blamed for sudden acceleration in its vehicles: sticky accelerator pedals and floor mats that can trap accelerator pedals to the floor."

Then I put that together with:

UAW’s New President Focuses on Organizing Toyota’s U.S. Workers

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...s-workers.html

And now I'm wondering, is the Capital Hill witch hunt we saw early in the year actually the price of fighting the UAW? Are we going to see this against the Big 3 if they don't reverse concessions? It appears that alot of this was trumped up and a Senate panel ran with it and fined Toyota prior to the conclusion of the NHTSA report.

I understand not liking Toyota. The only problem is when the witch hunts start, you never know where they'll end or what will get them started.

[shank0668]

I call bs because if that was the truth, it would happen in gm and ford cars too.

[bigearl]

They do have reports of other brands having unintended acceleration:

"Rounding out the Big Six are, in order of most complaints to fewest are, Ford Motor Company, consisting of Ford, Lincoln and Mercury models, with 387 complaints; Chrysler LLC, consisting of Chrysler, Jeep and Dodge models, with 171 complaints; General Motors, consisting of Chevrolet, Pontiac, Cadillac, GMC, Saturn, Saab, Buick and Hummer brands, with 152 complaints; Honda, including its Acura division, with 113 complaints; and Nissan, including its Infiniti division, with 62 complaints. "

-source: http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/02/...sis-shows.html

Toyota has the most by a large margin. Then they went and made some fixes and those fixes were mocked here- but without any real basis except just anecdotal stories read on the 'net. I guess now we'll see if post-fix, the total reported is in line with Toyota sales vs the rest of the market. You can't just call BS without doing a little analysis. There are unintended acceleration reports every year for a lot of manufacturers.

Ford Had 20 Acceleration Deaths as Regulators Cited Human Error (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=avQgmSFrg58A)

Several tests have concluded that vehicle brakes almost always have enough power to stop even the most powerful cars. There is also a correlation between age and unintended acceleration (it's more likely to happen to old people).

"Among 19 fatal Toyota accidents where the driver’s age is known, 10 were older than 60 and five were older than 80, which may indicate drivers who were more likely to depress the wrong pedal or not brake with enough force. The median age of drivers in fatal accidents in 2008 was 39, according to U.S. fatal accident data. The median age, where the data was available in the Toyota crashes, was 61. "

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by shank0668

I call bs because if that was the truth, it would happen in gm and ford cars too.

True story, firsthand:

I was backing an '07 Ford Fusion into a parking spot, this winter, with "winter boots" on. Lined it up and went to apply the brakes. Car started backing up faster?!!?? Got it stopped...

Cause? My big boot was applying pressure to TWO pedals at the same time and, because I was turned looking over my left shoulder, my right boot "turned", applying more pressure to the gas pedal than the brake.

Ford's fault? Not hardly... Thankfully I didn't smack into anything...I "adjusted" in time...

It "happens"...even to the not-so-old...or feeble...

[bigearl]

So I'm going to try to keep each hyped up recall story to it's own thread.

It was pointed out in a potential steering recall story that Autoblog reported: "Report: WSJ unintended acceleration story "planted" by Toyota"

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/15/r...ted-by-toyota/

However, a 7/14 article from the Financial Times basically is refuting that:

"US finds no fault in Toyota throttles"

"However, Daniel Smith, an associate administrator at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, said on June 30 that “despite several investigations of Toyota’s electronic throttle control system, NHTSA has not been able to find a defect”."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/55e42f88-8...tml?ftcamp=rss

Daniel Smith's presentation powerpoint for the June 30 meeting says:

"However, despite several investigations of Toyota’s ETC system, NHTSA has not been able to find a defect"

The complete text of which can be found here: http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs...lidesSmith.pdf

(it's actually pretty interesting)

Here is the meeting outline: http://www.trb.org/main/uastudy.aspx

So there is an official source, not a "Toyota Plant"

Daniel Smith's title is:

Mr. Daniel C. Smith
Associate Administrator for Enforcement
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Recall Management Division (NVS-215)
1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE – Room W45-306
Washington, DC 20590

What's my point?

My point is it's a little irresponsible to start running off about how Toyota's kill everyone until we get an official finding. Perhaps 5 minutes of research before the lynch mob is unleashed may be appropriate as well.

Autoblog, LLN, etc. is a joke for research. As I just proved, I can do better research on my afternoon coffee break.

[FenwickHockey65]

Sorry, but I find it very hard to believe that all those SUA complaints were caused by driver error. It's plausible for some cases, but not all.

[christianmotox]

The stored Data does not lie.

Toyota first said that it was mostly driver error, but no one believe them. Now that the US Department Of Transportation analyzed the Data, People still don't believe.....

I personally know of at least 3 people that had caused accidents because they pressed the accelerator instead of the brakes, or both at the same time. and none of those where Toyotas.

[bigearl]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Sorry, but I find it very hard to believe that all those SUA complaints were caused by driver error. It's plausible for some cases, but not all.

I guess we'll know next year. I just hate to see these media sensationalized stories take off until they become 'common knowledge' even though there's no proof yet. GM's been hurt by that kind of reporting in the past as well. 2 years ago the news was making it look like if you eat a big mac you'd instantly die of fatness. I don't own a Toyota and I hate feeling like I need to defend them, but honestly I would try to throw out some logic for ANY company that the media is trying to railroad into prejudgment.

[toesuf94]

A few months ago we learned from Toyota that they had one (1) laptop for the entire United States for reading the black boxes in their cars with proprietary software, but suddenly the NHTSA says the data they looked at all points to driver error, and that the computers all showed NO brake input but full throttle?

So, the cop who was killed along with three members of his family in the Lexus in California had his foot planted on the gas and not the brake during that 911 call? The eye witnesses to the accident all claimed the brakes were on FIRE on that car as it hurtled out of control down the highway. The Prius owner who managed to use a police cruiser to stop his car on the highway - the cop on scene stated that the driver was STANDING on the brakes, the brake lights were on, and no slowing occured.

I just want to know if Toyota provided the computer read outs of the black boxes in question or if the NHTSA had access to the cars BEFORE they were tampered with by Toyota.

This story does not pass the smell test. Does human error play a part in 99.9% of traffic accidents - you bet. Can we trust a major corporation: No.

[FenwickHockey65]

Well, the Prius incident was faked. But the CHP incident definitely brings up questions with this driver error excuse. I highly doubt the officer hit the wrong pedal in that case considering the fact that he spent most of his time at work in a car.

I'll admit I've hit the wrong pedal in my Envoy once or twice. But the second I sensed something was wrong, I scooted my foot a few inches to the left and hit the brake.

[christianmotox]

They still believe that the floor mat might have caused the gas pedal to Jam. but that's a separate issue from the electric glitch claimed by so many people.

[bigearl]

I was under the impression that the CHP Officer's case was a case of the floor mats. In fact iirc, this was a loaner car and a previous user had complained that the throttle got stuck and he couldn't get the car to slow.

Well f*^% as long as I've wasted my afternoon googling- let me find out, brb.


...http://autos.aol.com/article/toyota-...saylor-family/

pedal entrapment per the report and the prior user.

[fielderLS3]

I'm sure some of these cases were driver error. In our no personal responsibility for anything society, it's easy to imagine someone hitting the gas instead of the brake and refusing to admit it. Some where also definitely faked, particularly after it became a big news story.

However, there were many cases where the pedals actually did either stick or get trapped under the floor mat, and that is the fault of Toyota. A big part of the problem was probably people reacting poorly to the situation. No car has enough power (particularly not a Toyota) for the engine to overwhelm the brakes. During the family car comparison Motor Trend did at the time, they did a 60-0 braking test on all of them with the cars at full throttle. Some had the same stopping distance (some had override software). At worst, it took an extra 20-30 feet to stop.

This doesn't exonerate Toyota at all. Some pedals did stick. However, it does shine some light on the driving abilities of some of the people in the lane next to you on the highway.

Ironically, this story is probably the last thing Toyota wanted to see come out. For the most part, the story had blown over and people were starting to forget about it. Now its back in the news, and people are talking about it all over again.

[305pride]

being skeptical is useful. i like that people are researching and not taking everything that the media is saying as truth.