Electric Vehicles

[genxer]

Originally Posted by 90503

A lot of good posts and discussion lately.

Just curious...Why do these charging stations, or multiple charging stalls, "go out of service" or just quit working? Why are users surprised to find the charger they just pulled into does not work and can't be used? What goes wrong with them? Are they just cheap and easily broken? Bad design? Not enought electricity available for them to be used? I don't get it...lol

It always gets mentioned as if it's a normal circumstance. Why is that?

Seems like something that shouldn't be happening, as if things aren't bad enough, etc...

Good questions. What ratio of Tesla drivers there had decent charge times? If so, which versions fared better? Is it chargers?

The news articles are suggesting it's generally not the chargers, it's the cold making cell internal resistance too high. LFP chemistry is known to be worse there (in some Teslas).

There's supposed to be battery temperature conditioning to allow faster charging. Early Model S was design protected to allow battery swaps. Newer Teslas have structural packs. Can there be a difference in the cold conducted through, depending on construction? Battery packs might not be insulated enough, and maybe it's all of them.

[90503]

Not just extreme cold, or flooded out...I mean in general it just seems like a normal occurrence that random plug in stalls just don't work. Even if you look ahead on the apps or whatever, it may or may not show how many chargers are working and how many are not. Why would some of them not work?

It's not just a cold weather effect, it almost always mentioned anytime someone plans a trip, shows up, good weather or bad, and they can't charge because the plug-in simply is not working for reasons I have yet to hear explained.....lol

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by 90503

Not just extreme cold, or flooded out...I mean in general it just seems like a normal occurrence that random plug in stalls just don't work. Even if you look ahead on the apps or whatever, it may or may not show how many chargers are working and how many are not. Why would some of them not work?

It's not just a cold weather effect, it almost always mentioned anytime someone plans a trip, shows up, good weather or bad, and they can't charge because the plug-in simply is not working for reasons I have yet to hear explained.....lol

I'm going to guess... based on nothing more than common sense... it is because there's no money in it.

What incentive is there to keep something in good working order if it is not making you any money?

If EV chargers were profitable there would be every reason to keep them working. The fact that they are allowed to either be out of service or operating at reduced capacity tells me they don't make any money anyway so the operator doesn't care.

As to why they are off in the first place? Probably just that without maintenance almost anything will eventually fail.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Here’s another article addressing all the hype and false claims that EV proponents engage in. One thing I found interesting in the article is the pattern of the media overhyping EVs that goes back over 100 years.

https://robertbryce.substack.com/p/m...ony-on-epas-ev

That is a very interesting article. Very interesting.

Particularly the part about national security.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by docwra

...

Im also not sure how "makes the auto industry dependent on China" is an EV issue when 40% of cars sold in the USA are Japanese brands already.
If USA Government doesnt want Chinese cars thats not really an electric vehicle issue, than a US Government issue.

...

I believe he's referring to the minerals needed to build the batteries being mostly owned/controlled by China or Chinese properties. It's not about where the car manufacturer is from.

I'm not sure where the data on that stands currently, but as of a year or so ago, China had by far, the largest control of materials needed for generating batteries. I even posted an article about it here...but heck there's no way I could find that quickly.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Sorry, but there are plenty of news reports of EV owners in the Chicago area who were unable to charge at multiple ‘functional’ charging stations. Claiming that all these incidents stem from a single nonfunctioning charging station is not only factuality incorrect, it’s another example of you slanting your posts to support EV adoption.

If EVs were everything you say they are you could address their shortcomings openly and honestly.

Here’s a quote from a Chicago EV owner: "I was at 50% when I got here, usually from 50 to like 80, 90% it will take like 10, 15 minutes. It's taking an hour and 20 minutes," one driver shared at a Tesla charge station near Chicago.

Did they navigate to the supercharger or since I assume they go there all the time, they just drove there and plugged in?

Navigating to a supercharger especially when it is cold is critical in helping get as fast as possible charging. Navigating to it will let the car know it will be fast charging soon so it will heat up the battery. If you don't and plug in cold, it is now using some energy to heat the battery and trying to charge a cold battery.

^ Note that is specifically talking about Tesla'a. Not all EV's can condition the battery sadly.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

Not just extreme cold, or flooded out...I mean in general it just seems like a normal occurrence that random plug in stalls just don't work. Even if you look ahead on the apps or whatever, it may or may not show how many chargers are working and how many are not. Why would some of them not work?

It's not just a cold weather effect, it almost always mentioned anytime someone plans a trip, shows up, good weather or bad, and they can't charge because the plug-in simply is not working for reasons I have yet to hear explained.....lol

There is a lot to unpack on this topic. There are (3) charging protocols in use in the US, CCS Combo, North American Standard (NACS) and CHAdeMO. Tesla uses NACS in the US, Canada, an Mexico. They use CCS Combo everywhere else.

Most EVs sold in the US that are notTesla use CCS Combo. Aside from the recent problems in Chicago, pretty much all the problems with poorly functioning chargers are CCS Combo. Most people who are tracking this consider the problem to not be the technology, but the charge point operators (CPO). The biggest CPOs are ElectrifyAmerica (VW’s mega culpa for Diesel Gate), ChargePoint, and EVGo. A lot of the problem that EV drivers experience comes from the fact that every one of these providers have a different way of interacting with the driver and requesting payment. When I rented a Tesla in Atlanta and tried to charge it at an EVGo station, I spent about 10 minutes on the phone trying to get them to authorize payment so that I could start charging. Their stations don’t have a credit card tap or swipe reader. I don’t understand that at all. They all make you subscribe to their network online and use their tap card. Then there are different levels of diligence in maintaining the equipment and the cleanliness of the chargin sites.

Tesla is a much better integrated system. Since your phone is your key and since all your car’s information as well as your payment information is on your phone all you have t do is pull up to a Tesla charger and plug in. It knows which car is charging where, at what speed and how much energy is delivered and bills you seamlessly. Your car can communicate with nearby stations and inform you where they are, what the rated power is, how many stalls they have and how many stalls are available. In the rare instance that a Tesla stall is not functioning it lets you know that too. It tells you what your state of charge will be when you arrive and how long it will take to get you to your desired state of charge.

So now in 2025 pretty much every major manufacturer of EVs in the US is switching to Tesla’s NACS protocol and will be able to take advantage of the same level of integration.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

I believe he's referring to the minerals needed to build the batteries being mostly owned/controlled by China or Chinese properties. It's not about where the car manufacturer is from.

I'm not sure where the data on that stands currently, but as of a year or so ago, China had by far, the largest control of materials needed for generating batteries. I even posted an article about it here...but heck there's no way I could find that quickly.

This is the central issue around the IRA EV incentives that so many on this site hate. The purpose of the IRA incentives is to make certain that if there will be EVs sold in the US, there will be an advantage given to EVs that

• Are assembled in North America
• Have batteries that are assembled in North America
• Use battery minerals that are mined and processed in North America or countries with which the US has Free Trade Agreements (China is not one of those countries)
• Have anodes and cathodes that are sourced from North America or countries that the US has Free Trade Agreements with (again, not China)

So the whole point of IRA EV incentives is basically protectionist against Chinese cars and batteries.

The last two are the main reason why there are so few EVs that actually qualify for the incentives this year.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Sorry, but there are plenty of news reports of EV owners in the Chicago area who were unable to charge at multiple ‘functional’ charging stations. Claiming that all these incidents stem from a single nonfunctioning charging station is not only factuality incorrect, it’s another example of you slanting your posts to support EV adoption.

Actually it’s an example of me not checking enough sources. The three sources I checked when I wrote the post all referenced the same station. Since then I do see that it is more than just the one station.

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

If EVs were everything you say they are you could address their shortcomings openly and honestly.

Here’s a quote from a Chicago EV owner: "I was at 50% when I got here, usually from 50 to like 80, 90% it will take like 10, 15 minutes. It's taking an hour and 20 minutes," one driver shared at a Tesla charge station near Chicago.

That station is functioning, just very slowly as you would expect in extreme cold. Here’s the news article the quote is taken from pulled straight from MSN.com

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...GlF?ocid=hpmsn

So your post is simply not true.

My post was indeed inaccurate. I should have gathered more information.

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Here’s another article addressing all the hype and false claims that EV proponents engage in. One thing I found interesting in the article is the pattern of the media overhyping EVs that goes back over 100 years.

https://robertbryce.substack.com/p/m...ony-on-epas-ev

Interesting. I delivered a keynote address at a battery conference that he spoke at last year. We had the opportunity to compare notes a bit. We agree on a number of things, not so much on others. The battery group has asked me to come back this year and speak at their 100th Convention. Not sure if he is on the agenda again but I guess I’ll know soon enough.

[genxer]

-All of this just to not burn a little fuel, even to keep warm.
-The point made about fast charger profitability tying to issues was good, especially when most will routinely charge at home.
-And when the Volt came out, battery range was said to be good for 80+% of people's daily miles. But early adopters turned their noses up at it for Tesla.
-All of this trouble because: Bandwagon US policy makers would rather tilt the field vs. holdout citizens, than rivals on the tariff side. To 'keep up' with some EV adopting lousy allies.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

It’s interesting that I haven’t seen you post anything that mistakenly reflects poorly on EVs. All your mistakes fall in the same direction.

It’s out there. You may not have seen it or you may have attributed it to someone else. There is bound to be more from me that is PRO-EV than ANTI-EV because in all honesty, most of the “factual issues” come from the “I hate EVs” crowd and so much of it is full of false information that it keeps me really busy. I’ll post a list of problems I have with EVs in a minute.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

This is the central issue around the IRA EV incentives that so many on this site hate. The purpose of the IRA incentives is to make certain that if there will be EVs sold in the US, there will be an advantage given to EVs that

• Are assembled in North America
• Have batteries that are assembled in North America
• Use battery minerals that are mined and processed in North America or countries with which the US has Free Trade Agreements (China is not one of those countries)
• Have anodes and cathodes that are sourced from North America or countries that the US has Free Trade Agreements with (again, not China)

So the whole point of IRA EV incentives is basically protectionist against Chinese cars and batteries.

The last two are the main reason why there are so few EVs that actually qualify for the incentives this year.

We don't hate the IRA EV incentives, we hate the whole IRA. But that's a subject for which we have no forum here.

As for the last two, EV's won't qualify this year, or next, or ever. Because those are window dressing, feel good incentives that are basically impossible to achieve. And if they are achieved it would expose the blatant hypocrisy of the environmental movement because who is going to approve a freaking lithium mine when you can't even cut down a few trees that some owls live in? (For the record I am generally on the owl's side in that debate)

So these IRA incentives are not really incentives at all but little more than cover for the governments EV policy.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

So these IRA incentives are not really incentives at all but little more than cover for the governments EV policy.

Yeah, but... at least it stopped inflation, or something, right?

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Today:
Ford to Cut Production of Electric F-150 Pickups Amid Weaker Demand
Automaker now expects slower EV sales growth than anticipated in 2024. Ford will slash production of its electric pickup, the F-150 Lightning, after seeing weaker-than-anticipated demand.

AND:
…In a sign that traditional gasoline-powered vehicle demand remains strong, Ford also said that it was hiring nearly 900 new employees and adding 700 employees from its Rouge Complex for a third shift at its Michigan Assembly plant. This will allow the automaker to increase production of Bronco and Bronco Raptor sport-utility vehicles, and Ranger and Ranger Raptor pickup trucks.

yeah, but... TESLA FOAM FINGER #1! so that settles it.

And yes, until there is some profitability, real cost, associated with using charging stations, the tsunami of federal money to roll them out en-masse will look like a bunch of dilipitated Solindra factories within a couple of years. But for now, keep throwing federal money into the strip mines.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

It’s out there. You may not have seen it or you may have attributed it to someone else. There is bound to be more from me that is PRO-EV than ANTI-EV because in all honesty, most of the “factual issues” come from the “I hate EVs” crowd and so much of it is full of false information that it keeps me really busy. I’ll post a list of problems I have with EVs in a minute.

For me it boils down to this - I like EVs as cars. I hate EVs as policy.