OK....... well remember that CTS-V Challenge?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Zeus

"Professional Challenge participants, if any, shall compete against a GM professional driver or appointed designee."


Straight from the CTS-V Challenge Website. Ironic that a pro-driver facing off against Lutz would be viewed as unfair, but a pro-driver facing off against Cooper is just dandy.

If there were separate brackets with times that made the distinction...then I'd gladly retract my statement. But as I saw it, they were all up on the same board. They all beat Lutz (well, drivers 1-7 anyways) but only one of them won.

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

If there were separate brackets with times that made the distinction...then I'd gladly retract my statement. But as I saw it, they were all up on the same board. They all beat Lutz (well, drivers 1-7 anyways) but only one of them won.

ok. Cooper Beat Lutz, winning the 'beat lutz in a CTS-V challenge', even though he didn't put up the best lap time at the event.

I feel as if this has gone on so long that my position is somehow being viewed as anti-CTS-V. I LOVE the CTS-V. I was blown away by how nice it was when I sat in the car, and the attention to detail didn't reflect a company that was having financial issues. Yes there are things i'd change (exterior styling) but for the money there is no better car.

That said, Cooper may not have had the fastest lap time, but he beat the challenger and therefore won the challenge. That's what this whole bmw hoopla is about.

[1320junkie]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

Really, Junkie? This is a forum. I am here to discuss and debate on topics, that's what forums are meant for. The title of this section is "General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion." Not everybody on this site has to be in favor of your point of view. You have lost all credibility as an open-minded mod.

As for this thread, let's just leave it at Zeus's last post. Too many people who don't seem to understand basic logic, or who just don't know the facts.

Well I guess all of the mods here are not open minded. I explained to you in your PM with your ban on how to proceed when you came back. But I guess you did not pay attention or use that time to think about your style of posting.
Bye.

[TheCaptain]

Originally Posted by Zeus

ok. Cooper Beat Lutz, winning the 'beat lutz in a CTS-V challenge', even though he didn't put up the best lap time at the event.
...
That said, Cooper may not have had the fastest lap time, but he beat the challenger and therefore won the challenge. That's what this whole bmw hoopla is about.

But John beat Lutz, AND Cooper. So CTS V still wins. I don't know how much clearer of a winner than that is!

[dstairs]

Originally Posted by Zeus

Well the challenge was issued by Lutz. And Lutz made the rules. And he beat Lutz. If Lutz thought his age was going to conflict with his success in the competition then I would question why he issued the challenge to begin with.


If GM hadn't brought in paid professional drivers (which the M3 driver was not) he would have won.

so.... he "almost won"?

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by dstairs

so.... he "almost won"?

If your not going to make an effort to read the last 3 pages, I'm not going to make the effort of giving you the cliff notes.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Zeus

If your not going to make an effort to read the last 3 pages, I'm not going to make the effort of giving you the cliff notes.

And this one time,,,,,, at band camp.........

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by PQ

And this one time,,,,,, at band camp.........

lol

Let me guess. Verne was your Camp Councilor?



..........Lights out Randy..............

[Number 3]

I'm not exactly sure, but I think it goes like this........

Bob Lutz issued the challenge.

About the Challenge reads as follows:

•Challenge will take place on October 29, 2009 at 10:00 AM EST at the Monticello Motor Club in New York
•Challengers are responsible for all costs and expenses associated with their participation at the event, including but not limited to transportation to and from the event, lodging and all meals.
•Professional Challenge participants, if any, shall compete against a GM professional driver or appointed designee.
•Challenge Participants will get 5 laps to post best lap time
•Challenge Vehicles will not be raced simultaneously
•Challenge Vehicle must be a production sedan, within the Cadillac CTS-V competitive set and not have any aftermarket modifications.
•The Challenge is a dangerous activity. Challenge participants must sign a waiver of liability and a release prior to participation. If you do not sign the waiver and release, you will not be permitted to participate.

Go to the original website. Doesn't say anything about beating Bob Lutz.

So a GM retiree who has raced, and an engineer who develops cars for GM and a guy who no one can claim to know at all beat the guy in the BMW.

So Cooper beat the guy who ISSUED the challenge to come and beat the CTS-V, but he sadly did not beat the CTS-V. Great effort too.

Just sayin'

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I'm not exactly sure, but I think it goes like this........

Bob Lutz issued the challenge.

About the Challenge reads as follows:

•Challenge will take place on October 29, 2009 at 10:00 AM EST at the Monticello Motor Club in New York
•Challengers are responsible for all costs and expenses associated with their participation at the event, including but not limited to transportation to and from the event, lodging and all meals.
•Professional Challenge participants, if any, shall compete against a GM professional driver or appointed designee.
•Challenge Participants will get 5 laps to post best lap time
•Challenge Vehicles will not be raced simultaneously
•Challenge Vehicle must be a production sedan, within the Cadillac CTS-V competitive set and not have any aftermarket modifications.
•The Challenge is a dangerous activity. Challenge participants must sign a waiver of liability and a release prior to participation. If you do not sign the waiver and release, you will not be permitted to participate.

Go to the original website. Doesn't say anything about beating Bob Lutz.

So a GM retiree who has raced, and an engineer who develops cars for GM and a guy who no one can claim to know at all beat the guy in the BMW.

So cooper beat the guy who ISSUED the challenge to come and beat the CTS-V, but he sadly did not beat the CTS-V. Great effort too.

Just sayin'

Exactly.

CTS-V > M3

Cooper > Lutz


But people just get their panties in a bunch and argue for the sake of arguing.

[TheCaptain]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I'm not exactly sure, but I think it goes like this........

Bob Lutz issued the challenge.

About the Challenge reads as follows:

•Challenge will take place on October 29, 2009 at 10:00 AM EST at the Monticello Motor Club in New York
•Challengers are responsible for all costs and expenses associated with their participation at the event, including but not limited to transportation to and from the event, lodging and all meals.
•Professional Challenge participants, if any, shall compete against a GM professional driver or appointed designee.
•Challenge Participants will get 5 laps to post best lap time
•Challenge Vehicles will not be raced simultaneously
•Challenge Vehicle must be a production sedan, within the Cadillac CTS-V competitive set and not have any aftermarket modifications.
•The Challenge is a dangerous activity. Challenge participants must sign a waiver of liability and a release prior to participation. If you do not sign the waiver and release, you will not be permitted to participate.

Go to the original website. Doesn't say anything about beating Bob Lutz.

So a GM retiree who has raced, and an engineer who develops cars for GM and a guy who no one can claim to know at all beat the guy in the BMW.

So Cooper beat the guy who ISSUED the challenge to come and beat the CTS-V, but he sadly did not beat the CTS-V. Great effort too.

Just sayin'

Originally Posted by Zeus

Exactly.

CTS-V > M3

Cooper > Lutz


But people just get their panties in a bunch and argue for the sake of arguing.

Agreed.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I still don't think he "won"...and that's only because nobody was supposed to "win" in anything other than a game of chicken on a corporate level...

GM challenged other companies to a race. So far, the only headliner does not represent a company; therefore, Bob Lutz just singlehandedly beat the entire automotive industry.

Originally Posted by Zeus

Lutz issued the challenge to be on a personal level. Cooper beat Lutz.


How does he not win?


If you want to dig deeper it'd be a win-win because of the press it brought for the V... but Cooper DID beat Lutz.

GM wins by issuing the challenge. A kid beat Lutz on the track, but GM still gets to be in the headlines. The kid wins against Lutz and gets a lot of respect from BMW, but Lutz wins for getting GM lots of attention. The kid beat the challenge, but he would still lose to a CTS-V in a race, as his lap time reflects. The CTS-V is a better car, so the CTS-V still wins against the M3. You can call this a win-win-win for Lutz, the kid, and the CTS-V.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

He beat Lutz...but he did not win.

Winners are in first place, and regardless of whether Heinricy is a racer or not...he is in first, not this Cooper guy.

For the record, Heinricy could have driven a Prius, and I'd still make this argument, so it doesn't have to do with brand loyalty...

As I just noted, Lutz lost the challenge but won the game.

For all of you playing, you just lost.

Originally Posted by Zeus

"Professional Challenge participants, if any, shall compete against a GM professional driver or appointed designee."


Straight from the CTS-V Challenge Website. Ironic that a pro-driver facing off against Lutz would be viewed as unfair, but a pro-driver facing off against Cooper is just dandy.

This proves my point that the kid is disqualified because he is not a professional driver for BMW.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

If there were separate brackets with times that made the distinction...then I'd gladly retract my statement. But as I saw it, they were all up on the same board. They all beat Lutz (well, drivers 1-7 anyways) but only one of them won.

The winner is always in first. "What does it take to be number one?"—Nelly.

Originally Posted by Zeus

ok. Cooper Beat Lutz, winning the 'beat lutz in a CTS-V challenge', even though he didn't put up the best lap time at the event.

I feel as if this has gone on so long that my position is somehow being viewed as anti-CTS-V. I LOVE the CTS-V. I was blown away by how nice it was when I sat in the car, and the attention to detail didn't reflect a company that was having financial issues. Yes there are things i'd change (exterior styling) but for the money there is no better car.

That said, Cooper may not have had the fastest lap time, but he beat the challenger and therefore won the challenge. That's what this whole bmw hoopla is about.

BMW is capitalizing on what could become quality marketing. Some kid beat a Victory Cadillac in a BMW M. That's pretty awesome for them. I have a lot of respect for BMW, so I'm okay with this happening. GM enthusiasts will point out that BMW did not win, but it is hard to argue that this kid did not have the better track time over Lutz. Before, I called this a win-win-win. This may be a win-win-win-win when you throw BMW into the equation.

Originally Posted by dstairs

so.... he "almost won"?

He's not a professional driver, so he's disqualified. Despite this, he put up a time faster than Bob Lutz. Interpret that how you will.

Originally Posted by Zeus

If your not going to make an effort to read the last 3 pages, I'm not going to make the effort of giving you the cliff notes.

Originally Posted by Zeus

Exactly.

CTS-V > M3

Cooper > Lutz


But people just get their panties in a bunch and argue for the sake of arguing.

Seriously, unbunch your panties. The CTS-V is still the best in its class in terms of performance, and this kid is not going to cost Lutz his job or his reputation.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Zeus

I feel as if this has gone on so long that my position is somehow being viewed as anti-CTS-V.

Not by me!!! Like I said, they could all be driving priuses and I'd hold my opinion on this... I know you like the CTS-V -- never doubted it!

Originally Posted by Zeus

But people just get their panties in a bunch and argue for the sake of arguing.

I won't deny I like a good argument in semantics...I apologize.

[Windy City]

Just thought I would stop in and stir the chit!
The video on Speed of this was pretty cool!