40% reduced fuel consumption and fewer emissions?

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

its not just the post count... its also the time I've been here... and the date I originally posted the thread.

And that your name is in bright red itallics now

[coolman]

[QUOTE=CamaroSpike23;686179]I'm fully aware that methanol burns. its been used in more than race cars. on top of its burning properties, it also cools an air intake charge. or have you never heard of methanol injection? commonly used in boosted applications and even in some N/A applications (that arent full blown race cars). part of the diesel and otto process involves blowing up fuel and air... or did you forget the basics of internal combustion engines?


boiling point isnt the topic of the discussion, the freezing point is.
or did you mean something else by this comment?



and the "200lbs of water" is a far stretch.
the amount of water needed to be sprayed into the comb chamber to cool it down is not much. granted, if you are on a 2000mile cruise accross the country, then yes, you will be refilling about every other fuel stop.



and the troll comment. thats just funny.

I didn't mean it in the sense you think I did. I saw troll in your logo and just meant I didn't want to aruge about something that both of us clearly don't fully understand. I'm trying to make a differant point than you are seeing and thats okay. Didn't mean to afend. I bow to you oh great god of the post.

[syr74]

Crower's ideas are interesting, but I think a better future for the ICE can be found in the attempt to create gasoline fueled, diesel cycle engines and eventually, an ethanol fueled, diesel cycle engine. The obstacles are noteworthy, but both power and fuel efficiency would improve exponentially, literally we are talking about improvements on an almost unimaginable scale here, and the switch to ethanol would both end our national dependence on foreign oil and provide us with the renewable fuel source we have long sought.

[knowitman]

I haven't checked the links provided, but I do know that the six stroke concept has been around for years. While it is a good concept, there are several things that need to be overcome for it to become viable, and I would rather see that money and effort put into other ideas that will be more longterm such as electric vehicles like the Volt.

For one, regular tap water would not do good in this system. The impurities and salts present in tap water would just eat away and leave deposits in the combustion chamber. DI water could be used, but the cost of it would most likely negate your fuel savings.

There is the freezing issue that has been mentioned before. I haven't studied how methanol addition affects the freezing point of water. It's freezing point, -143F, is about 30 degrees higher then that of ethanol. For comparison, a 5% ethanol in water solution, beer, will freeze in a freezer, but a 40% solution, liquor, won't. These are ethanol solutions, and I can't say how methanol will compare, but it might take a considerable amount of methanol to provide adequate freezing protection which again increases cost.

[coolman]

Originally Posted by knowitman

I haven't checked the links provided, but I do know that the six stroke concept has been around for years. While it is a good concept, there are several things that need to be overcome for it to become viable, and I would rather see that money and effort put into other ideas that will be more longterm such as electric vehicles like the Volt.

For one, regular tap water would not do good in this system. The impurities and salts present in tap water would just eat away and leave deposits in the combustion chamber. DI water could be used, but the cost of it would most likely negate your fuel savings.

There is the freezing issue that has been mentioned before. I haven't studied how methanol addition affects the freezing point of water. It's freezing point, -143F, is about 30 degrees higher then that of ethanol. For comparison, a 5% ethanol in water solution, beer, will freeze in a freezer, but a 40% solution, liquor, won't. These are ethanol solutions, and I can't say how methanol will compare, but it might take a considerable amount of methanol to provide adequate freezing protection which again increases cost.

We use methanol in geothermal heatpumps and they need about 15 to 20%
methanol to water for freeze protection down to about 15deg. Above 20% and the mixture becomes flamable and unstable.

[TheClassicCarKid]

Originally Posted by coolman

So, now were going to carry a water tank and a gas tank. Love to see how that's going to work in the winter. How will carring 200lb of water on top of fuel save anything. Well, I guess anything is possible. With out guys like that where would we be today.

Well I don't think you'd need 200 pounds of water, that would be 25 gallons. Plus, with this engine the car no longer needs the fan, radiator, or coolant pump, which would also help offset gained water weight.

And to whoever said that the cost of distilled water would negate fuel savings, wouldn't you rather give 60% of your dollar to the Middle East than all of it? Heck, America can distill water, let's try to keep our money inside the country rather than sending it away

[coolman]

Originally Posted by TheClassicCarKid

Well I don't think you'd need 200 pounds of water, that would be 25 gallons. Plus, with this engine the car no longer needs the fan, radiator, or coolant pump, which would also help offset gained water weight.

And to whoever said that the cost of distilled water would negate fuel savings, wouldn't you rather give 60% of your dollar to the Middle East than all of it? Heck, America can distill water, let's try to keep our money inside the country rather than sending it away

the story I saw on the motor said it would use as much water as fuel. That's why I said 200lb of water. Average gas tank 25 gallons

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by coolman

the story I saw on the motor said it would use as much water as fuel. That's why I said 200lb of water. Average gas tank 25 gallons

Those are some big gas tanks. Few cars exceed 20 gallons these days, and a small car can be down near 10. Its larger for trucks and SUV's, but I'd say average would be 18 gallons. Plus if there is a substantial increase in fuel economy, you could get away with a smaller fuel tank and maintain the same fuel range.

[coolman]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Those are some big gas tanks. Few cars exceed 20 gallons these days, and a small car can be down near 10. Its larger for trucks and SUV's, but I'd say average would be 18 gallons. Plus if there is a substantial increase in fuel economy, you could get away with a smaller fuel tank and maintain the same fuel range.

I get ya. The whole point I was trying to make was that it uses the same amount of water as fuel. Edit my post if you would like ,to say 135Lbs , if that makes you feel better.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by coolman

I didn't mean it in the sense you think I did. I saw troll in your logo and just meant I didn't want to aruge about something that both of us clearly don't fully understand. I'm trying to make a differant point than you are seeing and thats okay. Didn't mean to afend. I bow to you oh great god of the post.

you cant offend me. trust me, many have tried.

the whole reason I bumped this thread is to get more discussion out of it and approach it from numerous directions other than my own.
I looked into this topic seriously about a year ago (around the same time I started this thread) and no one wanted to discuss it in depth so I lost interest as well.
the methanol example was just one that I could think of off hand. im sure there are other mixtures that could be ran in order to do this.

Originally Posted by knowitman

I haven't checked the links provided, but I do know that the six stroke concept has been around for years. While it is a good concept, there are several things that need to be overcome for it to become viable, and I would rather see that money and effort put into other ideas that will be more longterm such as electric vehicles like the Volt.

For one, regular tap water would not do good in this system. The impurities and salts present in tap water would just eat away and leave deposits in the combustion chamber. DI water could be used, but the cost of it would most likely negate your fuel savings.

There is the freezing issue that has been mentioned before. I haven't studied how methanol addition affects the freezing point of water. It's freezing point, -143F, is about 30 degrees higher then that of ethanol. For comparison, a 5% ethanol in water solution, beer, will freeze in a freezer, but a 40% solution, liquor, won't. These are ethanol solutions, and I can't say how methanol will compare, but it might take a considerable amount of methanol to provide adequate freezing protection which again increases cost.

the concepts been around for a while. and I dont see it making much progress into automotive technology, but maybe for industrial generators and the like would be a better direction for it to go.


the regular tap water comment makes me wonder tho, cus I know a few people who run water injection with tap (most use distilled, but a few still use the tap and havent run into problems).

as for the freezing problem, that could be more than likely be easily solved with a glow plug, heater coil, or blanket setup. then you have to remind consumers to plug their car in at night. however, there are a lot of people now who run heater blankets on their oil pans and engine blocks in winter areas for just this problem.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by coolman

I get ya. The whole point I was trying to make was that it uses the same amount of water as fuel. Edit my post if you would like ,to say 135Lbs , if that makes you feel better.

From my understanding, the water would not be consumed, but for the sake of argument lets just say it is and go from there.

I think the net result might be closer to an extra 60-80 lbs. An 18 gallon tank of water would be reduced to just under 11 gallons, add in the weight of the tank and you're at 100 lbs, give or take. But you also have 60 lbs less gasoline to lug around. So thats an extra 40 lbs, but why don't we call it 60, in case the savings aren't as substantial as hoped (radical technology has a bad habit of doing that)

If the conventional cooling system can be ditched, that will offset the extra weight of the pumps and plumbing for this system. If not, well then thats added weight, maybe 20 lbs? Add it up and roughly 80 lbs extra as a maximum, but its possible to be around half that.

[patriotpa]

Originally Posted by coolman

So, now were going to carry a water tank and a gas tank. Love to see how that's going to work in the winter. How will carring 200lb of water on top of fuel save anything. Well, I guess anything is possible. With out guys like that where would we be today.

Alcohol/water mix. More cooling and a little fuel for a spark!

[brandotron]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

as for the freezing problem, that could be more than likely be easily solved with a glow plug, heater coil, or blanket setup.

or this

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by brandotron

or this

depends on the content. and the taste....