Greatest of all time (GOAT NFL)

[Dmpsix]

Originally Posted by Red Chief

In 2002, there was one player with quarterback rating over 100 for the season.

In 2016, there were 5.

I don't have the patience to delve deeper into passing stats in 2016 vs. previous eras but I think it's starting to become a joke.

Playing "defense" in the NFL has devolved to basically waiting for A)The QB to throw an incompletion or B)The receiver to drop the ball. At this point a 24 point lead is more like a 10 point lead. That's why Atlanta kept the foot on the gas when they played Green Bay in the NFC Championship. That's why they kept passing when they could have been running out the clock in the superbowl.

Weak argument
In 2003 there were 2 QB's over 100
http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/p...ting/year/2003

As years progressed, the NFL developed into a passing League, it doesn't take away from how good you actually have to be at QB to win. If that were the case, the Jaguars, Browns, 49ers, Jets, Dolphins, Bears, Rams, etc. wouldn't be having issues at the inflated QB stat era that you're getting at.

a 24 lead is definitely more like a 24 point lead. All weak arguments here, Tony Romo himself has amongst the highest QB ratings ever for a QB (and I'm a Cowboys fan) how many Superbowls have we won with him at helm?

Exactly, just because QB's have great stats, doesn't mean you can take away from what they do in the post season. Exactly how many Hall of Famers has Brady thrown to throughout his career? 1... and how many seasons did Brady have a 30+ year old Randy Moss? 1... shoot many 1st to 3rd draft picks has Brady thrown to in his career? Brady has thrown to a bunch of nobody's his entire career. Julian Edelman? (7th rd draft pick) Martellus Bennet (former Cowboys 3rd string TE) Chris Hogan? (After Googling who he was, he was an undrafted free agent on his FIFTH team with the Patriots) and Brady makes him look like a Pro Bowler in the playoffs.

So it's a pretty weak argument to bring up stats and eras. You can argue that Brady is a system QB, and maybe he is? But isn't that what you do around a great QB? Build a system?

Joe Montana was highly molded into a system himself, heck his backup "System QB" came and won a Superbowl himself shortly after and outdoing Joe Montana with SIX touchdowns in a single Superbowl.



Here is a direct quote from a top 5 QB of all time, Troy Aikman

"I thought coming into the game, regardless of what the outcome was, that Tom Brady should be regarded as the greatest of all-time," said the three-time Super Bowl winner. "I know he was tied with Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw with four Super Bowl wins, but when you consider his body of work and the playoff wins and the 11 AFC Championship games, I didn't think tonight's game was really going to be much of a factor. But considering how he was able to win tonight, the first over time game to come back from that kind of deficit, to be the only quarterback to have own five Lombardi trophies.

"I think unequivocally, at least in my mind, Tom Brady is the greatest. And I'm proud to be able to say that, and I know that most everyone will agree with that."

http://dal.247sports.com/Bolt/Troy-A...-time-51135496

[Kenny Camaro]

Wow, Troy Aikmin says it , Terry Bradshaw said that he's the greatest he's ever seen, 7 Super Bowls victorys between them, with zero losses. What does Joe Montana have to say? Those are impressive statements by people with credentials that give what they say serious wieght.

[rich2342]

I find it interesting what other fans have to say about Brady. It's amazing that the media perpetuates all of these stigma's which feed into urban legend of the pats/belichick/brady. Usually trying to discredit one over the other. What other teams in the salary cap era have been able to do what this team has done. We rebuild on the fly and still get to AFC championships. The reason is Brady affords that ability and belichick recruits/drafts those who fill specific roles and are best utilized to their talents. It's truley simplistic and amazing.

[Red Chief]

Originally Posted by Dmpsix

So it's a pretty weak argument to bring up stats and eras.

Actually it's not. Ever since Kurt Warner and "the greatest show on turf" in St. Louis established a new benchmark in 1999, the NFL's worked hard to make that happen in other cities as well. They succeeded.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...gle_season.htm



Rank Player Rate Year Tm
1 Aaron Rodgers (27) 122.5 2011 GNB
2 Peyton Manning (28) 121.1 2004 IND
3 Nick Foles (24) 119.2 2013 PHI
4 Tom Brady (30) 117.2 2007 NWE
5 Matt Ryan (31) 117.1 2016 ATL
6 Peyton Manning (37) 115.1 2013 DEN
7 Tony Romo (34) 113.2 2014 DAL
8 Steve Young+ (32) 112.8 1994 SFO
9 Joe Montana+ (33) 112.4 1989 SFO
10 Aaron Rodgers (30) 112.2 2014 GNB
11 Tom Brady (39) 112.2 2016 NWE
12 Otto Graham+ (24) 112.1 1946 CLE
13 Tom Brady (33) 111.0 2010 NWE
14 Daunte Culpepper (27) 110.9 2004 MIN
15 Drew Brees (32) 110.6 2011 NOR
16 Milt Plum (25) 110.4 1960 CLE
17 Russell Wilson (26) 110.1 2015 SEA
18 Sammy Baugh+ (31) 109.9 1945 WAS
19 Drew Brees (30) 109.6 2009 NOR
20 Otto Graham+ (25) 109.2 1947 CLE
20 Kurt Warner+ (28) 109.2 1999 STL


http://www.pro-football-reference.co...FL/passing.htm

Passing
Rk Year Tms Cmp Att Cmp%
1 2016 32 22.5 35.7 63.0
2 2015 32 22.5 35.7 63.0
3 2014 32 21.9 34.9 62.6
4 2013 32 21.7 35.4 61.2
5 2012 32 21.2 34.7 60.9
6 2011 32 20.4 34.0 60.1
7 2010 32 20.5 33.7 60.8
8 2009 32 20.3 33.3 60.9
9 2008 32 19.7 32.3 61.0
10 2007 32 20.4 33.3 61.2
11 2006 32 19.1 32.0 59.8
12 2005 32 19.1 32.2 59.5
13 2004 32 19.1 31.9 59.8
14 2003 32 18.9 32.2 58.8
15 2002 32 20.1 33.8 59.6
16 2001 31 19.2 32.6 59.0
17 2000 31 19.1 32.9 58.2
18 1999 31 19.3 33.8 57.1

Noticing a trend? The second statline is league-wide. That means it includes all the backups, rookies and first round busts along with the better QBs.

[Red Chief]

Originally Posted by Dmpsix

a 24 lead is definitely more like a 24 point lead.

OK let's look at that for a second.


http://www.pro-football-reference.co...FL/passing.htm

Again, this is league-wide

2016- 786 Passing TDs 415 INTs Passing Yards 123639
1999- 665 Passing TDs 562 INTs Passing Yards 105289

That's a 15.4% increase in passing TDs since 1999. Not only that, but INTs are DOWN 26.16% from 1999. Passing yards are up by 17.4%.

That's what an economist would call inflation. That's why 24 points in today's game are definitely not what they used to be.

[Dmpsix]

Originally Posted by Red Chief

Actually it's not. Ever since Kurt Warner and "the greatest show on turf" in St. Louis established a new benchmark in 1999, the NFL's worked hard to make that happen in other cities as well. They succeeded.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...gle_season.htm



Rank Player Rate Year Tm
1 Aaron Rodgers (27) 122.5 2011 GNB
2 Peyton Manning (28) 121.1 2004 IND
3 Nick Foles (24) 119.2 2013 PHI
4 Tom Brady (30) 117.2 2007 NWE
5 Matt Ryan (31) 117.1 2016 ATL
6 Peyton Manning (37) 115.1 2013 DEN
7 Tony Romo (34) 113.2 2014 DAL
8 Steve Young+ (32) 112.8 1994 SFO
9 Joe Montana+ (33) 112.4 1989 SFO
10 Aaron Rodgers (30) 112.2 2014 GNB
11 Tom Brady (39) 112.2 2016 NWE
12 Otto Graham+ (24) 112.1 1946 CLE
13 Tom Brady (33) 111.0 2010 NWE
14 Daunte Culpepper (27) 110.9 2004 MIN
15 Drew Brees (32) 110.6 2011 NOR
16 Milt Plum (25) 110.4 1960 CLE
17 Russell Wilson (26) 110.1 2015 SEA
18 Sammy Baugh+ (31) 109.9 1945 WAS
19 Drew Brees (30) 109.6 2009 NOR
20 Otto Graham+ (25) 109.2 1947 CLE
20 Kurt Warner+ (28) 109.2 1999 STL


http://www.pro-football-reference.co...FL/passing.htm

Passing
Rk Year Tms Cmp Att Cmp%
1 2016 32 22.5 35.7 63.0
2 2015 32 22.5 35.7 63.0
3 2014 32 21.9 34.9 62.6
4 2013 32 21.7 35.4 61.2
5 2012 32 21.2 34.7 60.9
6 2011 32 20.4 34.0 60.1
7 2010 32 20.5 33.7 60.8
8 2009 32 20.3 33.3 60.9
9 2008 32 19.7 32.3 61.0
10 2007 32 20.4 33.3 61.2
11 2006 32 19.1 32.0 59.8
12 2005 32 19.1 32.2 59.5
13 2004 32 19.1 31.9 59.8
14 2003 32 18.9 32.2 58.8
15 2002 32 20.1 33.8 59.6
16 2001 31 19.2 32.6 59.0
17 2000 31 19.1 32.9 58.2
18 1999 31 19.3 33.8 57.1

Noticing a trend? The second statline is league-wide. That means it includes all the backups, rookies and first round busts along with the better QBs.

Actually it is a weak argument... you're noticing a trend that is capturing the League's evolution into a passing league... got it...

I'm sure that explains Tom Brady winning 3 Superbowls in 01, 03, and 04 and directly benefiting from a captivating league average of *gasp* 59.8% !!

There was not a single roughing the passer called in the second half, let alone 4th quarter that directly helped Tom Brady. The man put the team on his back even when Atlanta started their early celebration.

You've completely tiptoed around the entire point here, only to bring the obvious to light, the fact that the NFL is a passing league now. We all know that. The facts I've laid before you are hard to dismiss and understandably tend to be avoided rather than disputed... because... well they're facts and they can't be disputed... understandable, I don't blame you.

I still don't see your point here though implying that passer rating average is a cause in Tom Brady's success. There are about 20 other teams in the NFL that year in, and year out seem to have been unsuccesful in benefiting directly from this success like you imply Brady has, it's time to face it... Brady is the greatest to ever do it.

[Red Chief]

...

LOL

No, he's not the greatest of all time. They literally made up a rule just because he got hurt and missed a season. Heaven forbid.

Speaking of which, wasn't that the season where Matt Cassel looked like a good QB?

[3 SS's]

Originally Posted by Red Chief

...



Speaking of which, wasn't that the season where Matt Cassel looked like a good QB?

until he became a chief

[hrpiii]

I am not a Patriots fan, but you have to give Brady the nod for making the passes. The receiver has to catch it of course, but the pass has to be to the receiver to catch. Either down the field, underneath, across, screen, etc... the passes have to be accurate. A great receiver will catch those passes that the average receiver cannot. And Patriots have never had that "above" average receiver on their team, meaning it does rely on Brady's accuracy. Now saying he's the greatest of all time, that is just impossible to justify. Like measuring any current player to players of the past. It takes a team to win the game, he's just a big part of making points for the offense, when the defense cannot stop the other team.

Would Brady of looked that good if Ryan put up 57 points. Brady's stats would of been the same, his passes just as good, but the outcome would of been overshadowed because of the Loss. I enjoy talking about positions and players, but it's still comes down to all the players working together for a common cause.

[Dmpsix]

Originally Posted by Red Chief

...

LOL

No, he's not the greatest of all time. They literally made up a rule just because he got hurt and missed a season. Heaven forbid.

Speaking of which, wasn't that the season where Matt Cassel looked like a good QB?

Yeah they made it illegal to hit a QB below the knees... which is completely understandable. QB's sit there in the pocket and by far take some of the biggest hits in the League. It makes perfect sense to at least protect their knees.

But are you seriously deducting his accomplishments because he can be a pansy? We all know Tom Brady gets the special calls, that's without question.

If we're measuring QB's by toughness then Brett Favre should be the GOAT in that case.

[Dmpsix]

Originally Posted by hrpiii

I am not a Patriots fan, but you have to give Brady the nod for making the passes. The receiver has to catch it of course, but the pass has to be to the receiver to catch. Either down the field, underneath, across, screen, etc... the passes have to be accurate. A great receiver will catch those passes that the average receiver cannot. And Patriots have never had that "above" average receiver on their team, meaning it does rely on Brady's accuracy. Now saying he's the greatest of all time, that is just impossible to justify. Like measuring any current player to players of the past. It takes a team to win the game, he's just a big part of making points for the offense, when the defense cannot stop the other team.

Would Brady of looked that good if Ryan put up 57 points. Brady's stats would of been the same, his passes just as good, but the outcome would of been overshadowed because of the Loss. I enjoy talking about positions and players, but it's still comes down to all the players working together for a common cause.

Nah dude, Troy Aikman himself said Brady was the greatest.

Again, if there's ANYONE qualified to call a QB the best ever, then a 3 time Superbowl winning Hall of Fame QB like Aikman should be the guy.

I'm amongst the biggest Cowboys' fans ever, and I have to admit that Brady simply will not be under anyone else.

[Dmpsix]

I would like to put things into perspective as well.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-16-...072920750.html

The Patriots needed 16 plays to make this happen... and they all happened. Tom Brady needed to make some HUGE throws... and he did.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Interesting factoid from yesterday's Wall Street Journal:

Here are the dynasties of the Super Bowl Era and the number of Hall of Famers each quarterback had on at least two of the championship teams, excluding himself.

1960s Packers - Bart Starr - 8 HOFers

1970s Steelers - Terry Bradshaw - 8 HOFers

1980s 49ers - Joe Montana - 3 HOFers

1990s Cowboys - Troy Aikman - 3 HOFers

2000-10s Patriots - Tom Brady - None

The only sure bet HOFer Brady played with was Randy Moss... and that was for one year and they didn't even win that year.

Brady gets my G.O.A.T. vote

[hrpiii]

Originally Posted by Dmpsix

Nah dude, Troy Aikman himself said Brady was the greatest.

Again, if there's ANYONE qualified to call a QB the best ever, then a 3 time Superbowl winning Hall of Fame QB like Aikman should be the guy.

I'm amongst the biggest Cowboys' fans ever, and I have to admit that Brady simply will not be under anyone else.

he also was forced to retire due to concussions, so I'm not putting a lot of stock in a guy that has head trauma. Maybe if Joe or Terry backed that up, maybe even Farve.. just Troy, by himself... nope.