2018 Mustang Reveal Yesterday

[Camaro1LTBA]

I pretty much browse the general section and while I will not be purchasing a Mustang, I appreciated seeing the first pictures and now some of the changes as well.

I don't see the harm if it's informative and doesn't cause any issues. Thanks for posting. I'd rather find out here than have to go find whatever forum the Mustang owners are using and lurking there.

Anyway, nothing earth-shattering here anyway, but appreciated the info.

[Camaro1LTBA]

Ford didn't completely drop the V6 for the T4, did they? Forgot to get that in. Would hate for GM to follow if true and think it would be a huge mistake!

(thought I read that in the original 18 Mustang thread)

[Sunsnare98]

Originally Posted by Camaro1LTBA

Ford didn't completely drop the V6 for the T4, did they? Forgot to get that in. Would hate for GM to follow if true and think it would be a huge mistake!

(thought I read that in the original 18 Mustang thread)

Yep they did.

The new mustang is gonna be a good one. I bet the gt pp will be competition for the 1le.

[gringo]

Ford did drop the V6 for the 2018 Mustang. It kinda makes sense though. All the LTG turbo guys like to glow about how easy it's going to be to increase performance by just turning up the boost with a tune.

The N/A LGX is like the red headed step child. I think GM will eventually drop the LGX in the Camaro like Ford did with their N/A V6. Two engine options is enough for these cars in today's market not counting the specialized hyper performance models like the ZL1 or GT350R.

[zshazz]

Originally Posted by Sunsnare98

Yep they did.

The new mustang is gonna be a good one. I bet the gt pp will be competition for the 1le.

The new PP has an upgraded suspension and better tires (with indications that the widths will remain unchanged), but the PS4S tires, as wonderful as they will be, aren't as dedicated to max performance as the 1LE's Supercar 3 tires, plus they're thinner (or, rather, the 1LE has monstrously huge tires). Right now, even if you believe that the chassis of the Camaro isn't outright better than the Mustang's (for performance, at least), you could only really make sense of that if you believe the Camaro's chassis is so inferior that smaller, less grippy tires are able to out-handle it (a pretty bold claim and a lot of speculation that is going against the opinions of professional car reviewers). That said, I don't know what the PP2 package entails (maybe it's just PP + MRC, or it could be a package that adds wide tires and a few extra bits from the GT350 to, hopefully, bring the GT PP2 up to the 1LE's level).

I'd say it'd close the gap some, but even with a tire/wheel swap to match (and ignoring the better 2-piece rotors on the 1LE, which will better handle the stress of track driving), it's hard to discount the magic of the E-LSD + PTM combo for non-professional race car drivers. The average track-day enthusiast is likely to go faster in the 1LE than the Mustang GT PP, all other things balancing out. But both cars are going to be so fast that it really won't matter, though. I just suspect that the Camaro will be more accessible and more thrilling (esp. considering factors like the exhaust sound).

In summary: I'd say temper your expectations and realize it'll be a good "middle-ground" performance car, otherwise you're probably going to end up being disappointed. It'll definitely make for a good Head 2 Head, though.

[draph]

Wow, I apologize to the complainers. I looked 3 or 4 pages down in this forum and saw no 2018 Mustang thread discussing the factual reveal...If I did, I certainly wouldn't have started a new one. I thought Ford had a bigger batch of fanboys; but it appears there's still a few Chevy guys who just don't want to even acknowledge another side exists and has some merits worth discussing (kind of like the attitude taken by Trump haters). The future of Camaro depends upon its competitiveness with Ford, and vice versa for Ford. Without the competition, the products get stale, sales plummet, and the nameplate goes away (remember what happened after the 1982 to 2003 Camaro?).

Rivalry between the fans should be fun. Passion is great until it borders on hate. Not sure if its a generational thing or if our society has simply devolved to religious levels of "us vs. them".

I've been a member of this forum for quite some time, since I became interested in purchasing a Camaro of this generation since they first came out. I grew up in an all GM all the time family. My pause to decide on either car has been for reasons discussed elsewhere (mainly Ford's superior interior comfort and visibility vs. Chevy's superior driving experience and outright performance). I've seen many good things about this "community"; and now I've seen its mean side. Fortunately for the car companies, I'm not going to let forum behavior affect my purchase decision.

I've still got my 1970 'vette convertible to sell before I buy a contemporary play car. If it doesn't sell until there's a 2018 Mustang to test drive, I will certainly have to compare how it does against the 2SS. I think Mustang upgrades will greatly improve its driving dynamics, but speculate it can't overcome it's weakness against the alpha-structure of the Camaro-IMHO. Also, no matter how you slice it, a 5.0 without turbos needs more revs to develop the same power of a 6.2 without turbos - and even if the peak hp of the 2018 5.0 Coyote steps 20 or 30 hp above the LT1, the LT1 will still have it off the line to street legal speeds, which is what matters on a daily driver pony car. So, I'm still leaning Camaro unless/until I drive that Ford (well selected gear ratios *might* overcome its low end power disadvantage). I'm an MT guy...but note the 10AT in the Ford will help keep the 5.0 in the sweet spot, which is probably more necessary for the Ford than the 10AT in the Chevy with its flatter power curve.

[Sunsnare98]

Originally Posted by zshazz

The new PP has an upgraded suspension and better tires (with indications that the widths will remain unchanged), but the PS4S tires, as wonderful as they will be, aren't as dedicated to max performance as the 1LE's Supercar 3 tires, plus they're thinner (or, rather, the 1LE has monstrously huge tires). Right now, even if you believe that the chassis of the Camaro isn't outright better than the Mustang's (for performance, at least), you could only really make sense of that if you believe the Camaro's chassis is so inferior that smaller, less grippy tires are able to out-handle it (a pretty bold claim and a lot of speculation that is going against the opinions of professional car reviewers). That said, I don't know what the PP2 package entails (maybe it's just PP + MRC, or it could be a package that adds wide tires and a few extra bits from the GT350 to, hopefully, bring the GT PP2 up to the 1LE's level).

I'd say it'd close the gap some, but even with a tire/wheel swap to match (and ignoring the better 2-piece rotors on the 1LE, which will better handle the stress of track driving), it's hard to discount the magic of the E-LSD + PTM combo for non-professional race car drivers. The average track-day enthusiast is likely to go faster in the 1LE than the Mustang GT PP, all other things balancing out. But both cars are going to be so fast that it really won't matter, though. I just suspect that the Camaro will be more accessible and more thrilling (esp. considering factors like the exhaust sound).

In summary: I'd say temper your expectations and realize it'll be a good "middle-ground" performance car, otherwise you're probably going to end up being disappointed. It'll definitely make for a good Head 2 Head, though.

I actually think the new Michelin tires will be better...a lot better actually. Wide isn't always better either. It's relative to the chassis. But I agree that the e-diff will separate the two alone. But we also don't know the power levels yet. But a 7500 redline is amazing, especially if it has more hp and torque than our cars.

[90503]

Originally Posted by draph

Wow, I apologize to the complainers. I looked 3 or 4 pages down in this forum and saw no 2018 Mustang thread discussing the factual reveal...If I did, I certainly wouldn't have started a new one. I thought Ford had a bigger batch of fanboys; but it appears there's still a few Chevy guys who just don't want to even acknowledge another side exists and has some merits worth discussing (kind of like the attitude taken by Trump haters). The future of Camaro depends upon its competitiveness with Ford, and vice versa for Ford. Without the competition, the products get stale, sales plummet, and the nameplate goes away (remember what happened after the 1982 to 2003 Camaro?).

Rivalry between the fans should be fun. Passion is great until it borders on hate. Not sure if its a generational thing or if our society has simply devolved to religious levels of "us vs. them".

I've been a member of this forum for quite some time, since I became interested in purchasing a Camaro of this generation since they first came out. I grew up in an all GM all the time family. My pause to pull the trigger on either car has been for reasons discussed elsewhere (mainly Ford's superior interior comfort and visibility vs. Chevy's superior driving experience and outright performance). I've seen many good things about this "community"; and now I've seen its mean side. Fortunately for the car companies, I'm not going to let forum behavior affect my purchase decision.

I've still got my 1970 'vette convertible to sell before I buy a contemporary play car. If it doesn't sell until there's a 2018 Mustang to test drive, I will certainly have to compare how it does against the 2SS. I think Mustang upgrades will greatly improve its driving dynamics, but speculate it can't overcome it's weakness against the alpha-structure of the Camaro-IMHO. Also, no matter how you slice it, a 5.0 without turbos needs more revs to develop the same power of a 6.2 without turbos - and even if the peak hp of the 2018 5.0 Coyote steps 20 or 30 hp above the LT1, the LT1 will still have it off the line to street legal speeds, which is what matters on a daily driver pony car. So, I'm still leaning Camaro unless/until I drive that Ford (well selected gear ratios *might* overcome its low end power disadvantage). I'm an MT guy...but note the 10AT in the Ford will help keep the 5.0 in the sweet spot, which is probably more necessary for the Ford than the 10AT in the Chevy with its flatter power curve.

No worries...You're not the first one to make a repeat thread, and you won't be the last....

Your thread probably will get moved here with the others....

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/forumd...daysprune=&f=6

No biggie....Good luck.

[zshazz]

Originally Posted by Sunsnare98

I actually think the new Michelin tires will be better...a lot better actually. Wide isn't always better either. It's relative to the chassis.

Again, I'd say temper your expectations. The PS4S tires are going to be great daily driver tires that will get you to maybe 30k miles while giving you a wonderful, sporty ride. But realistically, Supercar 3 tires aren't poorly conceived ... they're a great tire in their own right, but they made a tradeoff to have greater performance for worse treadwear.

Unless Michelin has successfully performed magic, the PS4S isn't going to grip "a lot" better than them while getting 3x more life. Maybe it'll get 90% of the grip, and maybe that'll be good enough to get people on it (I'm definitely considering it myself after I wear out the Supercar 3s, because then I could get a dedicated track wheel/tire setup).

But betting on magic... eh... I wouldn't. An alternative explanation could be that the PS4S tires are going to fail to deliver anything remotely close to the life of the predecessor, which would be disappointing for the fans of the original tires. And it would probably make me reconsider switching to them.

And while wider isn't always better, in this case it is. It hasn't gone off to the extreme where it doesn't make a difference/makes things worse.

[Michael2000]

Lot of Snowflakes here.

Go to any car forum. There are always posts about other cars. You should see how many Porsche posts there are on the Corvette forum and vice versa.

[Sunsnare98]

Originally Posted by zshazz

Again, I'd say temper your expectations. The PS4S tires are going to be great daily driver tires that will get you to maybe 30k miles while giving you a wonderful, sporty ride. But realistically, Supercar 3 tires aren't poorly conceived ... they're a great tire in their own right, but they made a tradeoff to have greater performance for worse treadwear.

Unless Michelin has successfully performed magic, the PS4S isn't going to grip "a lot" better than them while getting 3x more life. Maybe it'll get 90% of the grip, and maybe that'll be good enough to get people on it (I'm definitely considering it myself after I wear out the Supercar 3s, because then I could get a dedicated track wheel/tire setup).

But betting on magic... eh... I wouldn't. An alternative explanation could be that the PS4S tires are going to fail to deliver anything remotely close to the life of the predecessor, which would be disappointing for the fans of the original tires. And it would probably make me reconsider switching to them.

And while wider isn't always better, in this case it is. It hasn't gone off to the extreme where it doesn't make a difference/makes things worse.

If the new good years are anything like their predecessors, there's no way it'll be better than the new Michelin. The g2 supcar tires were pretty bad. Why do you think michelin would discontinue the super sport to be replaced by a worse tire? It's not going to happen my friend. The current super sports will out handle the new goodyears.

[zshazz]

Originally Posted by Sunsnare98

If the new good years are anything like their predecessors, there's no way it'll be better than the new Michelin. The g2 supcar tires were pretty bad.

I haven't heard that at all. The majority of comments speak that the Supercar2 tires needed heat to start sticking but they do a great job after that. And usually they're compared to other <250TW tires. No one expects (nor should expect) a 300TW tire to stick as well as that, so when people sing the praises of the MPSS they aren't saying they outperform significantly softer tires, they're saying they perform exceptionally for a tire that lasts 30k miles.

Originally Posted by Sunsnare98

Why do you think michelin would discontinue the super sport to be replaced by a worse tire? It's not going to happen my friend. The current super sports will out handle the new goodyears.

First off: the current Super Sports do not outhandle the new Goodyear Supercar 3. I'm certain you're misremembering the article that states such, but I'll give you an opportunity to find said article and show it. They do, however, make an excellent tradeoff for daily driver comfort that nearly matches tires like Goodyear Supercar 3 for non-track driving. If you take the MPSS on track and get too much heat on them (which can happen quite quickly if you overdrive them, which will happen often with 455HP to the rear tires), they break down, chunk, and are ruined. Again, it's not a knock on Michelin, they just aren't the tire that does literally everything better than every other tire, which is hardly a standard anyone expects of them.

Secondly, I do not believe the Super Sport would be replaced by a worse tire. The current tires can't match a 220TW tire on a track. But it's just simple tire engineering: tires stick better at the cost of wearing faster. The only way that the Michelin will get within striking distance (or surpass) the Goodyear Supercar 3 tires is if they compromised tire life by going with softer/grippier compounds. You're making the claim that the PS4S tires are going to outperform the Supercar 3s, and the only way it's going to do it is by compromising one of the features everyone likes about the originals: their wonderful balance of performance and longevity.

[Sunsnare98]

Originally Posted by zshazz

I haven't heard that at all. The majority of comments speak that the Supercar2 tires needed heat to start sticking but they do a great job after that. And usually they're compared to other <250TW tires. No one expects (nor should expect) a 300TW tire to stick as well as that, so when people sing the praises of the MPSS they aren't saying they outperform significantly softer tires, they're saying they perform exceptionally for a tire that lasts 30k miles.



First off: the current Super Sports do not outhandle the new Goodyear Supercar 3. I'm certain you're misremembering the article that states such, but I'll give you an opportunity to find said article and show it. They do, however, make an excellent tradeoff for daily driver comfort that nearly matches tires like Goodyear Supercar 3 for non-track driving. If you take the MPSS on track and get too much heat on them (which can happen quite quickly if you overdrive them, which will happen often with 455HP to the rear tires), they break down, chunk, and are ruined. Again, it's not a knock on Michelin, they just aren't the tire that does literally everything better than every other tire, which is hardly a standard anyone expects of them.

Secondly, I do not believe the Super Sport would be replaced by a worse tire. The current tires can't match a 220TW tire on a track. But it's just simple tire engineering: tires stick better at the cost of wearing faster. The only way that the Michelin will get within striking distance (or surpass) the Goodyear Supercar 3 tires is if they compromised tire life by going with softer/grippier compounds. You're making the claim that the PS4S tires are going to outperform the Supercar 3s, and the only way it's going to do it is by compromising one of the features everyone likes about the originals: their wonderful balance of performance and longevity.

Your statements are simply not true.

I've had both the mpss and the g2 and i have pushed them both to the limits. The mpss actually has a more progressive break away and is easier to drive at the limits because of this.

My mpss's didn't chunk at all under massive heat ( why would they put these on the z51 c7 corvette which is marketed as track ready if that were the case...same thing with the gt350. And compared to the g2, the traction was the same on the track and the mpss took less heat to stick, has better wear and is far superior in wet conditions.

This isn't a knock against you, but if you don't have real world experience with both tires, I wouldn't jump to conclusions ( or be that guy that references magazines and articles.... The new good year might be better, but if we're comparing the g2, mpss takes win from my experience on a track. I have a set of new good years on the way, so I'll be able to tell you in the spring for sure.

With that being said...with the new Michelin design, I'm pretty sure it will at least match the performance of the new good year.

[zshazz]

Originally Posted by Sunsnare98

Your statements are simply not true.

I've had both the mpss and the g2 and i have pushed them both to the limits. The mpss actually has a more progressive break away and is easier to drive at the limits because of this.

My mpss's didn't chunk at all under massive heat ( why would they put these on the z51 c7 corvette which is marketed as track ready if that were the case...same thing with the gt350. And compared to the g2, the traction was the same on the track and the mpss took less heat to stick, has better wear and is far superior in wet conditions.

This isn't a knock against you, but if you don't have real world experience with both tires, I wouldn't jump to conclusions ( or be that guy that references magazines and articles.... The new good year might be better, but if we're comparing the g2, mpss takes win from my experience on a track. I have a set of new good years on the way, so I'll be able to tell you in the spring for sure.

With that being said...with the new Michelin design, I'm pretty sure it will at least match the performance of the new good year.

Ok, well, I'm going off of everyone elses' experiences with all of the tires: http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=474207 .. It seems like the prevailing opinion of real-world experiences tends to favor the Supercar 2 tires. And keep in mind, the Supercar 2 tires were a huge upgrade from the originals, and the Supercar 3 tires are likely going to improve upon that formula.

I can't convince you and that's fine. But the truth is we're both speculating mostly positively about the PS4S. I'm speculating that the PS4S will be the best all-around daily-driver tire, and you're speculating that it'll be the "Chosen One" of tires, able to outpace tires that wear out 3x faster with ease, even ones specifically designed for the Camaro, specifically designed for track.

I think you're being far too optimistic and setting yourself up for disappointment, but truthfully, the only one that could be hurt by that expectation is yourself. I'll never believe the PS4S tires will outperform (or even match) the Supercar 3 tires' performance without hard proof (since the claims are so extraordinary) and you're starting to suggest that proof of the opposite wouldn't even matter to you so there's really no use in continuing.