2015 Challenger Hellcat 707 HP

[shaffe]

Ford has shown recently they are quick to respond to challenges from team Camaro.

Camaro comes out in 2010, 2011 Mustang gets 5.0 (which yes they were working on for a while, but we all know it was to be ready for Camaro)

GT500 got HP increases from 500 in 07-09, to 540 in 10 and 11 to 550 in 12 to 662 in 13.

ZL1 and Z/28 and 1LE handling is pushing ford on the Track pack and GT350 model (assuming)

Mustang had its refresh in 10 when camaro came out, and again in 13.

I think it is fantastic how GM and Ford and Dodge are all pushing each other. If I was a Camaro guy, I would be hoping that the new Mustang is an amaxing performer bc you know that GM will respond and vice versa

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

After the 5.8 Trinity was dropped on GMs head, you don't think SVT is capable of anything more?

I get that you are a GM fanboy but that doesn't mean you have to ignore reality.

This is the problem. Chevy comes out with a 650-hp vette, the last one was 632, gain of 18-hp. Meanwhile Dodge unleashes 707-hp Wildcat, and plans a 775-hp Viper, Ford teases us with 750+ hp Mustang.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

After the 5.8 Trinity was dropped on GMs head, you don't think SVT is capable of anything more?

I get that you are a GM fanboy but that doesn't mean you have to ignore reality.

Speaking of which...

NO MATTER how STOUT Ford makes the engine(s), or how much aluminum - c/f they slather on the Stang, or how foot-sure the rubber OR the brakes are, how much can they get for a "warmed-over Mustang"?! And "warmed-over" is what every 'net expert, auto-scribe and REAL buyer will think of it as...RIGHT?

They'll HAVE to avoid the $70s, or they'll get sucked into head-to-head comparos with America's KING, the C7 Z06.

The writing is on the wall. the TRUE costs of the LT4 engine are little (if any) more than the LSA was. So, what should a Gen-6 MRC BIG-braked 650 lb-ft ZL1 price out at? Not much more than a Gen-5. Call it "$60-ish" for starters ('Cat money, roughly) and add the -R package with C-C brakes for LESS THAN $70K.

For that to happen @ Ford, they have to do "ALL THAT"...AND DEVELOP A NEW MEGA-ENGINE. GM doesn't...

Sleepless nights ensue...

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by newmoon

This is the problem.

Read above...carefully...

NOT 'fanboy"...FACT.

[LOWDOWN]

Keep in mind, folks, the commonly used (currently) Tremec 6-Speed ceases @ 650 lb-ft. Their 700 lb-ft. version is BIGGER...doesn't fit the Viper, currently, and probably not the C7...or the Alpha Camaro...or the Mustang. NOT even the gargantuan 'Cats...

Anyone else with a 700+-capable trans suffers the same fate...SIZE-PACKAGING.

You can build all manner of hp., but you can only USE 650 lb-ft. And TORQUE is what launches these cars. So with Torque Management ONLY fully functional on AWD and/or Dual Clutch/Automatic transmissions, there's a mechanical issue EVERYONE must address...including folks "dreaming" of 750+ hp Top Fool engines...

Time...and of course MONEY...IF EVER!

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Speaking of which...

NO MATTER how STOUT Ford makes the engine(s), or how much aluminum - c/f they slather on the Stang, or how foot-sure the rubber OR the brakes are, how much can they get for a "warmed-over Mustang"?! And "warmed-over" is what every 'net expert, auto-scribe and REAL buyer will think of it as...RIGHT?

They'll HAVE to avoid the $70s, or they'll get sucked into head-to-head comparos with America's KING, the C7 Z06.

The writing is on the wall. the TRUE costs of the LT4 engine are little (if any) more than the LSA was. So, what should a Gen-6 MRC BIG-braked 650 lb-ft ZL1 price out at? Not much more than a Gen-5. Call it "$60-ish" for starters ('Cat money, roughly) and add the -R package with C-C brakes for LESS THAN $70K.

For that to happen @ Ford, they have to do "ALL THAT"...AND DEVELOP A NEW MEGA-ENGINE. GM doesn't...

Sleepless nights ensue...

This Z06 is an overweight pig for a Corvette. It's unfortunate but true. With Ford pushing the Mustang as hard as the did with the GT500 and Trinity 5.8, it wouldn't be that hard to match straight line performance. With the Mustang moving to a modern chassis with IRS, the handling will be substantially better.

You are taunting a company that has proven they are more than willing to innovate where others don't, with cars like the BOSS, or meet a challenge laid down by others, like they did with the GT500 vs ZL1.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Speaking of which...

NO MATTER how STOUT Ford makes the engine(s), or how much aluminum - c/f they slather on the Stang, or how foot-sure the rubber OR the brakes are, how much can they get for a "warmed-over Mustang"?! And "warmed-over" is what every 'net expert, auto-scribe and REAL buyer will think of it as...RIGHT?

They'll HAVE to avoid the $70s, or they'll get sucked into head-to-head comparos with America's KING, the C7 Z06.

The writing is on the wall. the TRUE costs of the LT4 engine are little (if any) more than the LSA was. So, what should a Gen-6 MRC BIG-braked 650 lb-ft ZL1 price out at? Not much more than a Gen-5. Call it "$60-ish" for starters ('Cat money, roughly) and add the -R package with C-C brakes for LESS THAN $70K.

For that to happen @ Ford, they have to do "ALL THAT"...AND DEVELOP A NEW MEGA-ENGINE. GM doesn't...

Sleepless nights ensue...

So lets play the hypothetical game then (and keep this civil haha)

Say Ford's SVT product does tip into the 70s. How does that not get the same treatment as the Z/28.... in your own words how much can they get for a warmed over (insert model here). No matter how good the Z/28 is, some people still look at it as just a Camaro. Why would that logic apply only to the Mustang and not the Camaro?

What if Ford accepts that challenge of going after the Z06 ( I seriously doubt that just playing the what if game) Ford doesn't have a halo sports car like the Vette, the Mustang fills that role for them. Ford can throw everything possible at the Mustang to make a car to compete with the Vette, and if that was their target it would most likely destroy a future Camaro ZL1. BUT like you mentioned, that would put the Mustang in a price range that it has never seen.

It is a very exciting time. I can't wait to see how Ford responds and then how GM responds.

[HEMI DAVE]

I for one expect Ford to answer up in a big way.......that's what they do.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

This Z06 is an overweight pig for a Corvette. It's unfortunate but true. With Ford pushing the Mustang as hard as the did with the GT500 and Trinity 5.8, it wouldn't be that hard to match straight line performance. With the Mustang moving to a modern chassis with IRS, the handling will be substantially better.

Yup, you're right. GM FAILED on the C7 Z06 when they didn't ONLY concentrate on 1/4-mile times. FAILED-FAILED-FAILED.

You are taunting a company that has proven they are more than willing to innovate where others don't, with cars like the BOSS, or meet a challenge laid down by others, like they did with the GT500 vs ZL1.

I never taunted Ford. I've simply pointed out, at $79K - Base for a C7 Z06, a car (Corvette) with a MUCH RICHER HISTORY OVER A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME than Mustang, that it's a "fool's bet" to try and sell your TOP Mustang (especially in the rarified air of $70K+) dollar-for-dollar (or very close...close enough to be considered as "Corvette competition") against the TOP Corvette.

It's NEVER happened before, successfully, and that ISN'T about to change because YOU "might" buy one if it happens...or so YOU can BRAG on a 'net forum about it...

You're the one doing the "taunting"...and you're doing a pizz-poor job of presenting an even half-ways viable case against the $79K-Base C7 Z06...

Keep this in mind...that's HALF the price Ford clipped folks for the MUCH less-able Ford GT...

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Yup, you're right. GM FAILED on the C7 Z06 when they didn't ONLY concentrate on 1/4-mile times. FAILED-FAILED-FAILED.



I never taunted Ford. I've simply pointed out, at $79K - Base for a C7 Z06, a car (Corvette) with a MUCH RICHER HISTORY OVER A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME than Mustang, that it's a "fool's bet" to try and sell your TOP Mustang (especially in the rarified air of $70K+) dollar-for-dollar (or very close...close enough to be considered as "Corvette competition") against the TOP Corvette.

It's NEVER happened before, successfully, and that ISN'T about to change because YOU "might" buy one if it happens...or so YOU can BRAG on a 'net forum about it...

You're the one doing the "taunting"...and you're doing a pizz-poor job of presenting an even half-ways viable case against the $79K-Base C7 Z06...

You missed my point entirely. This Z06 has a worse power to weight ratio than the ZR1 it is replacing.

You assume the top Mustang would be knocking on Z06 territory with nothing to support that claim. The new Mustang's MRSP went up very little even though it is an all new chassis and with an updated engine line up. There is no reason why a halo Mustang would suddenly be $15k more than the GT500.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

You missed my point entirely. This Z06 has a worse power to weight ratio than the ZR1 it is replacing.

You assume the top Mustang would be knocking on Z06 territory with nothing to support that claim. The new Mustang's MRSP went up very little even though it is an all new chassis and with an updated engine line up. There is no reason why a halo Mustang would suddenly be $15k more than the GT500.

I think you are basing your P/W ratio on estimates of weight and not final numbers. According to the order guide, the 1LZ M6 Z06 is 3298 lbs which is slightly less than the old ZR1 (http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2015-...6-order-guide/).

Of course, that could be wrong, too, but the point is we really don't know what the P/W ratio is.

[LOWDOWN]

You missed my point entirely. This Z06 has a worse power to weight ratio than the ZR1 it is replacing.

...but a MUCH better number than the car it replaced...for EQUAL $$,$$$...

...and "ZR1" still remains available...and if you FULLY read the LT4 Story from HRM, there's MORE AVAILABLE-COMING...

You assume the top Mustang would be knocking on Z06 territory with nothing to support that claim. The new Mustang's MRSP went up very little even though it is an all new chassis and with an updated engine line up. There is no reason why a halo Mustang would suddenly be $15k more than the GT500.

IF (that word) a Gen-6 Mustang GT500 was available, it would Base @ $60K, at a minimum.

NOW, things like Multimatics, and/or MRC, and something better than Pep Boys tires, and C-C brakes EXIST. Add those to your hypothetical "$60K GT500", along with aluminum and/or c-f...and where are you?

You've just BLASTED through $70 and you're headed for $80...or MORE!

And remember, anything Ford does to the Stang, GM can do for the CAMARO...with an already-bought-and-paid-for ENGINE! Or, the ones HRM alluded to...you know, those engines that Powertrain was ACTUALLY working on while you were whining about GM's "engine upgrade failures"...

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

I think you are basing your P/W ratio on estimates of weight and not final numbers. According to the order guide, the 1LZ M6 Z06 is 3298 lbs which is slightly less than the old ZR1 (http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2015-...6-order-guide/).

Of course, that could be wrong, too, but the point is we really don't know what the P/W ratio is.

The weight I saw was 3,525 lbs. I'll have to find where I saw that again but I think it was from GM.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The weight I saw was 3,525 lbs. I'll have to find where I saw that again but I think it was from GM.

I've seen that estimated weight several times, too. It was disappointing to say the least. But now I have some hope that was wrong.