2015 Challenger Hellcat 707 HP

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

It's a matter of marketing for Dodge. They've been getting away with sloppy performance cars for years without investing in the same stuff as the competition.

For customers, it's a ripoff. People will buy it because they measure their egos by the number of ponies under the hood. Of course, a combination of superior suspension, better grip, lighter body, aerodynamics, and driving skill can beat pure power at the track, even in a straight line. Why should Dodge change their tune? Eventually, their drivers will either get sick of being bested by less powerful cars or the real drivers will just drive something else. It's a ripoff because Camaro and Mustang development teams design a car with more capability in the same price range.

In any case, there's no need to be confrontational about it. The Navy doesn't pay me to track my car, so I don't have the available funds to start my racecar driving career. Racecar driving aside, you can feel the difference between a superior car and an inferior car on the street, and it's obvious you're driving a powerful but inferior Dodge every time. That's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of engineering and science.

I'm afraid your logic and level-headed sensibilities have fallen on deaf ears. People get excited about the engine (707hp rightfully so) but they fail to look at the car as a whole. I am hoping Dodge has more secrets in store for the Hellcat with regard to suspension and handling. We haven't seen anything from SRT in past Challenger iterations to suggest this is an interest/goal for them. Until we see performance numbers, skidpad, braking, slalom, and feedback from driving experience, this may be another engine looking for a chassis.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

I'm afraid your logic and level-headed sensibilities have fallen on deaf ears. People get excited about the engine (707hp rightfully so) but they fail to look at the car as a whole. I am hoping Dodge has more secrets in store for the Hellcat with regard to suspension and handling. We haven't seen anything from SRT in past Challenger iterations to suggest this is an interest/goal for them. Until we see performance numbers, skidpad, braking, slalom, and feedback from driving experience, this may be another engine looking for a chassis.

You're right. People will see a big number a wet themselves. That's how these things work.

Of course, Dodge also isn't selling in bulk like Chevy and Ford are. Maybe people aren't as stupid as they think.

[Loading.....]

Originally Posted by 07-SRT

Where did SRT/Dodge release the official weight? Link?
All I have seen is estimated......

http://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/cha.../2015-SRT.html

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

It's a matter of marketing for Dodge. They've been getting away with sloppy performance cars for years without investing in the same stuff as the competition.

For customers, it's a ripoff. People will buy it because they measure their egos by the number of ponies under the hood. Of course, a combination of superior suspension, better grip, lighter body, aerodynamics, and driving skill can beat pure power at the track, even in a straight line. Why should Dodge change their tune? Eventually, their drivers will either get sick of being bested by less powerful cars or the real drivers will just drive something else. It's a ripoff because Camaro and Mustang development teams design a car with more capability in the same price range.

In any case, there's no need to be confrontational about it. The Navy doesn't pay me to track my car, so I don't have the available funds to start my racecar driving career. Racecar driving aside, you can feel the difference between a superior car and an inferior car on the street, and it's obvious you're driving a powerful but inferior Dodge every time. That's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of engineering and science.

It's funny that you state this as I am one of the few who have owned all three of these cars within the last 3-years and I will say that the 392 Challenger was superior in every measurable way (well maybe not fuel mileage), to both my Camaro SS, and Mustang GT.

I thought the Challenger had a superior suspension (adjustable bilsteins), superior ride, interior, superior engine & performance, electronics, and overall look. So exactly where is this inferior stuff coming from other than track lap times? Now I understand that I am comparing a SRT model to a SS and GT, but price wise paying $42,500, I was much closer to them than either the ZL1 or 500.

[The_Blur]

Let me compare an Aventador to an Optima to demonstrate my point. It's going to look better, have better performance, and have nicer materials, but the Optima will have better fuel economy. The Aventador is in a significantly higher price range with different goals than the Optima as far as performance benchmarks and build quality. As a result, any comparison will list the Aventador as a winner.

You're comparing a car that outclasses the $35k pony car class by such a large margin that you're not really in the same market anymore. You've gone out of the street fish market, past the grocery store, and into a fine sushi establishment. It's a big change. Of course it would win your comparison.

As for the price, all you did was demonstrate that a top tier Dodge is cheap, as it should be because it doesn't have the capability of a ZL1 or GT500, which is exactly what I said.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Stock vs Stock, the Hellcat automatic will need nothing to take care of the 500 in the following the majority of chance encounters: 0-60, 1/8, 1/4, Stop light-Stop light, and top end. Roll race and track handling could be interesting.

Stock vs stock and manual vs manual, no? So we need to match an automatic transmission against a manual transmission car that is no longer in production for Dodge to win?

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Stock vs stock and manual vs manual, no? So we need to match an automatic transmission against a manual transmission car that is no longer in production for Dodge to win?

I don't care whether its a manual or automatic Hellcat do you really think that a manual ZL1, Z/28, or even a 500 will have a prayer against this car.

What do manual ZL1s typically run 12:20-12:40s, 500s upper 11s - low 12s (not hero runs)? Dodge has already stated low 12s from the 392, what do you think this Hellcat is going to do with 222 more hp?

[v8]

I think that manual vs manual, stock vs stock, the Hellcat may take the GT500. Sure it weighs more, but its got lower rear gearing 3.70 vs 3.31 and an IRS in the rear, so if it can put the power down then its going to be quick. I'm waiting to see the real world results.
The important thing to remember is these cars help us all. While I can't confirm, but I think the ZL1 pushed the GT500 to go to 662, and that pushed Dodge to go to 707. So it a win for everyone. Without competition we may not even have the ZL1. I love the power wars. To make a 707HP engine with a factory warranty is something to be proud about, as few manufacturers can lay claim to that.

[McRat]

Originally Posted by Loading.....

http://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/cha.../2015-SRT.html

The idea the Dodge will make no effort at weight reduction on their flagship musclecar is puzzling.

That weight is higher than the 4 door V8 supercharged Cadillac station wagon, which is a 5 year old chassis design.

The CTS-V wagon is the same exterior size, but a larger interior. It is known to be a heavy chassis, all steel. With 19"x9.5" + 19"x10" wheels, huge iron Brembos, and a deluxe interior.

I suppose that weight COULD be right, but then I'd have to assume Dodge has no idea how to do weight reduction or doesn't care about performance.

[rocket403]

Looking at Edmonds times with the three cars
Camaro ZL1 12.4 Mustang GT 500 11.9 and Challenger SRT 8 12.6

Challenger is .2 sec in the 1/4 from the ZL1 and 0.7 sec from the GT500
that is with 470-580-662 hp

Now with an extra 237 hp I'm real interested in seeing the 1/4 times on the Hellcat

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by rocket403

Looking at Edmonds times with the three cars
Camaro ZL1 12.4 Mustang GT 500 11.9 and Challenger SRT 8 12.6

Challenger is .2 sec in the 1/4 from the ZL1 and 0.7 sec from the GT500
that is with 470-580-662 hp

Now with an extra 237 hp I'm real interested in seeing the 1/4 times on the Hellcat

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Here is one of the best quotes yet on the subject from a 500 owner on the SVT forum:

Precisely. This thing, with the TorqueFlite 8spd, is going to be an utter demon from a dig. When the light clicks green, the 8spd Hellcat will be a psychedelic blur in the near distance before your clutch even fully engages. Believe me, if/when I run into a Hellcat, I'll want to lay a nasty beatdown on it as much as the next Shelby owner. Objectivity, however, precludes me from misplaced convictions. With all that grunt and no real input required from the driver other than a deft mashing of the go pedal, don't expect to fare very well if you find yourself next to an auto Hellcat at a stoplight.

6spd vs 6spd is another matter. The better driver will win. I also like the Shelby's chances from a roll vs. either variant, especially if the start speed allows the Shelby to wind through the majority of third gear.

It's very easy to occupy quixotic notions when your passion belongs to a car that has, in some way, been outdone by a competitor. There's no escaping that the Shelby has been out-powered. Fortunately, it has also been outweighed. It's still not prudent, though, to underestimate this very potent feline merely for the sake of preserving unyielding fidelity to the Shelby. In need of Jenny Craig as this porker may be, it's going to be a beast, especially so in the 8spd.

Vehicles: 2007 Trailblazer SS (not stock), 2014 Shelby (SGM, white stripes), and 1981 Zastava Koral 0.9L

[Whos_Drivin]

Originally Posted by newmoon

You do understand that outside of reading magazine articles the majority of Camaro/Mustang/Challenger & Charger owners could care less about track ability. By far the majority of owners are looking for street performance and strip performance. So tell me why should Dodge change its angle? I wonder how many members on all three forums actually track their car. I know here even in the ZL1 forum there seems to be much more interest in the 1/4.

As a ZL1 owner, I disagree. 1/4 mile times are posted more because they are a comparable metric and a tool much like a dyno. Road course times are not comparable to any other track and much more subjective to event traffic and are not as readily available...thus not posted as much. My car has been to 3 HPDE events and has never seen the 1/4. In the end HP numbers are for bench racers and marketing...they mean nothing without the right car and driver

[khell86]

I think everyone here agrees that with the automatic, the Hellcat will be a contender for sure. We've all seen plenty of shitty drivers though, even with automatics, ruin the potential of great cars. The Hellcat with the automatic does stand the chance of averaging better runs over the scope of it all, but an equally good driver in the shelby with an equally good driver in the auto hellcat will still be a drivers race.

45hp and 19lb/tq will not make up the difference of 600 lbs in the hands of equal drivers.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Whos_Drivin

As a ZL1 owner, I disagree. 1/4 mile times are posted more because they are a comparable metric and a tool much like a dyno. Road course times are not comparable to any other track and much more subjective to event traffic and are not as readily available...thus not posted as much. My car has been to 3 HPDE events and has never seen the 1/4. In the end HP numbers are for bench racers and marketing...they mean nothing without the right car and driver

And I will respectfully disagree with you on certain points. Yes track and HPDE events have become much more popular and people do want their cars to be able to corner well. But the vast majority of the enthusiast crowd, still cares about straight line acceleration, and who can beat who if they line up at a stop light because thats where most of the encounters happen. I mentioned this in another thread about the hellcat, when people(general public, car guy, bench racer, whoever) ask you if your car is fast, do you think they care or would even know if your lap times are fast or good? No, but you tell them you can hit 60 in X amount of seconds or you have no problems beating X car in a race, then they know its fast.