2015 Challenger Hellcat 707 HP

[AEP11]

Originally Posted by rocket403

I Agree
I think it will be hard to match track times of the Z28, but until the car is out and people are able to test it then it is all just a guess.

Exactly. Cant wait to see what it can do.


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[newmoon]

A bit more teasing....

[AEP11]

Wow!!! That was one killer cutaway engine!! Really seems like those guys did things the right way. That motor sounds pretty damn stout too. Imagine it modded.


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[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by AEP11

10's of thousands of 392's?? Highly doubt it.

Yes, there are nearly 20,000 392 Challengers on the street since 2011.

Originally Posted by AEP11

Every drag racer isnt a member on forums.

Which is why I averaged the times of the drag racers that DO post their times. How else would you gather times to compare? The average based on actual owners is 12.98 @ 109.4 mph. The average based on professional reviews is 12.85 @ 112.1 mph. Pretty consistent, no?

Originally Posted by AEP11

Just bc the Z28 isnt a "drag car" doesnt mean you can use that as an excuse for shitty drag times.

Z/28: 0-60 in 4.1; 12.38 @ 117.0 mph

Please elaborate on how this is "shitty" for a 3,800lb car with a manual transmission and no launch control putting 455hp/420ft-lbs to the ground.

Originally Posted by AEP11

The GTR isnt a drag car either but it shits and gets.

It also has AWD, launch control, a DCT, and more power (470hp/450ft-lbs to the ground). What does this have to do with the Hellcat?

Originally Posted by AEP11

The Z28 has 305 RACE tires. I doubt its having a hard time hooking up with a stock LS7. I promise you the 392 has a harder time with its crap 255 tires.

So Dodge can't engineer a car to accommodate wider tires? They can't choose ANY manufacturer to provide tires for them? Dodge cuts corners and that's somehow the Camaro's fault? Please explain.

Originally Posted by AEP11

Again ive already said i know it was built for the strip BUT im personally comparing strip perf. I stated that in strip perf the Z28 & 392 is close and damn sure not leagues apart. At most its .5 seconds and 5mph. Thats not leagues my friend. Thats a drivers race.

You mean to say a 0.5 sec ET and 5mph trap is a "drivers race"? The Z/28 is trapping 117 mph consistently. That is 172ft/sec. Which equates to 86ft ahead of the Challenger. That is two school buses and pulling my friend.

Originally Posted by AEP11

I understand you wanting them to be leagues apart considering price,hp, and weight.

I don't want them to be leagues apart. I don't want to frame any conversation around a Z/28 at a drag strip! That is not the intended purpose of this car. You can balk at the performance of the Cayman S at the drag strip too - that's not what the car was created for. Put it on a track and it changes everything.

Originally Posted by AEP11

Now on a road course the 392 shouldnt even insert the key to listen to the radio much less race it. They're not even playing the same sport much less the same league.

Originally Posted by AEP11

The 15 392 will run what the z28 runs in the 1/4 and thats pretty pathetic.

Let me say it again, the Z/28 was NOT designed to be a drag car. There is the COPO for that. If you think it is fair to compare the Z/28 and 392 Challenger at the drag strip then it is only fair we compare them on a road course too.

You think an extra 15hp in the scat pack is really going to shave 0.5 sec off the E.T. and make it trap 5mph faster? Please elaborate.

Originally Posted by AEP11

The z28 & zl1 should both be consistent 11sec bone stock cars but they arent

According to whom? Neither car is ideal for the strip. Chevrolet set out to build a powerful, balanced, well rounded automobile in the ZL1 and they succeeded. The Z/28 was tailor made for the track to run with GTR's and 911t and it does that exceptionally well. I realize the Challenger ONLY competes in a straight-line, and that's all Challenger/Charger enthusiasts have to hold on to. But Chevrolet, and now Ford with the S550 Mustang, is moving into driver-oriented, performance cars that compete with the rest of the world. Dodge seems stuck in the past with their "put a bigger engine in it" philosophy.

Originally Posted by AEP11

Again if dodge is advertising the 392 as the same time the ZL1 gets then the HELL CAT with at least 150 more hp is going to literally give it hell.

In a straight line, I should hope so. If Dodge fails to do this then they are even more hopeless than they appear. But will it be the better car? The GT500 was faster in every straight-line test vs the ZL1 but the ZL1 was consistently deemed the winner as it was the better car.

The other question will be price. How much is Dodge going to charge for the 392 dung pack and hell kitten? They realized they priced the SRT's too high and released the "core" models to better compete. Sadly this hasn't translated into competitive sales for the Challenger.

Originally Posted by rocket403

the 392 is faster in the 1/4 than the Camaro SS now and Next year

Not according to AEP11 - it's apparently a "drivers race" if ET's are within 0.5 sec and traps within 5 mph.

Challenger SRT8
C&D: 0-60 in 4.5, 12.9 1/4mile at 114mph, 4203lbs
MotorTrend: 0-60 in 4.6, 13.0 1/4mile at 111.3mph, 4260lbs
Edmunds: 0-60 in 4.7, 12.9 1/4mile at 111.0mph, 4257lbs
Edmunds: 0-60 in 4.5, 12.6 1/4mile at 112.1mph, 4257lbs

Camaro SS
Motor Trend: 13.1 sec @ 110.8 mph
Car and Driver: 13.0 sec @ 111 mph
Road & Track: 13.0 sec @ 110.7 mph
Inside Line: 13.1 sec @ 110.4 mph

Originally Posted by rocket403

the Hellcat is going to be faster than the ZL1 even with 600hp

In a straight-line only, and will cost considerably more than the ZL1.

Originally Posted by rocket403

The Camaro at this point is faster round the track than the 392, we need to wait and see if the changes made have a better impact on track times for the Hellcat and SRT/RT

This is what I think is absurd. What on God's green earth makes you think the Challenger is going to beat a $37,000 1LE around a track? Let's start there before we bring the ZL1 and Z/28 into the track discussion.

Originally Posted by rocket403

For me I follow the 1/4 mile times more than the track times, I raced more times than I can count in the 1/4.

As I stated above, of course you do. It is all you have. You fail to realize that GM is building some of the fastest track machines on the planet for considerably less than what the competition offers. They are driver-oriented cars. What Dodge product can you say that about?

[Spoolin]

Originally Posted by AEP11

Wow.

Every drag racer isnt a member on forums.

Just bc the Z28 isnt a "drag car" doesnt mean you can use that as an excuse for shitty drag times. The GTR isnt a drag car either but it shits and gets. The Z28 has 305 RACE tires. I doubt its having a hard time hooking up with a stock LS7. I promise you the 392 has a harder time with its crap 255 tires.

Again ive already said i know it was built for the strip BUT im personally comparing strip perf. I stated that in strip perf the Z28 & 392 is close and damn sure not leagues apart. At most its .5 seconds and 5mph. Thats not leagues my friend. Thats a drivers race. One mistake and either could win. One great light and the 392 can take it. I understand you wanting them to be leagues apart considering price,hp, and weight. Its just not the case.

Now. The 15 392 will run what the z28 runs in the 1/4 and thats pretty pathetic.

The z28 & zl1 should both be consistent 11sec bone stock cars but they arent

Again if dodge is advertising the 392 as the same time the ZL1 gets then the HELL CAT with at least 150 more hp is going to literally give it hell.


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Your reaching my friend. Know when to concede some points and support others.

[AEP11]

LOL. First off ill say put down the magazines and mouse.

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Yes, there are nearly 20,000 392 Challengers on the street since 2011. Proof?


Z/28: 0-60 in 4.1; 12.38 @ 117.0 mph

Please elaborate on how this is "shitty" for a 3,800lb car with a manual transmission and no launch control putting 455hp/420ft-lbs to the ground.

Its shitty bc it isnt an 11 sec car. It doesnt need launch control with 305 race tires. Last i heard a manual puts more power to the ground and traps higher. What do C6Z's weigh? 3200lbs? Thats a 600lb difference but those cars have been high 10's BONE STOCK with the same engine. 1000lbs=1 sec in the 1/4 roughly right? So at 4200lbs that car should be able to make an 11sec pass right? Whats the prob? Its a half second off of that while being 400lbs lighter. As i said its put down shitty 1/4 time thus far for its power to weight ratio.

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

It also has AWD, launch control, a DCT, and more power (470hp/450ft-lbs to the ground).

What does this have to do with the Hellcat? Nothing. I brought it up bc you said its a no no to bring up z28 1/4 times due to it not being a "drag car". The GTR was not built for the strip period. Its great on a road course and its already been stated by your beloved mags that if it had tires as good as the z28 it would rape it on the playground the Z was designed for. Also last i checked a DCT wasnt designed for the drag strip. Pretty sure 2spd powerglides are popular there. As far as more power. So it puts down 20 more hp yet runs 8mph faster in the 1/4 at the same weight. Man that Z's crazy impressive i tell ya.

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

So Dodge can't engineer a car to accommodate wider tires? They can't choose ANY manufacturer to provide tires for them? Dodge cuts corners and that's somehow the Camaro's fault? Please explain.

Not at all but its silly to compare tires from a track built car thats gutted with no ac, speakers, or carpet that comes with basically street leagal slicks that come in at 305.

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

You mean to say a 0.5 sec ET and 5mph trap is a "drivers race"? The Z/28 is trapping 117 mph consistently. That is 172ft/sec. Which equates to 86ft ahead of the Challenger. That is two school buses and pulling my friend.

See when I read this it almost made me not even respond at all.

Its a 172ft/sec @ 117mph! The Z28 only reaches 117mph at the finish line. It DOES NOT carry that from the second the light turns green my friend. The race would be a few car lengths at most.

I have never seen two 12 sec cars go at it down the strip and said "man that was a raping, that 12.8 car should have never ran that 12.3 car". I mean really they are both 12sec cars.

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

I don't want them to be leagues apart. I don't want to frame any conversation around a Z/28 at a drag strip! That is not the intended purpose of this car. You can balk at the performance of the Cayman S at the drag strip too - that's not what the car was created for. Put it on a track and it changes everything.

Excuses excuses.

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Let me say it again, the Z/28 was NOT designed to be a drag car. There is the COPO for that. If you think it is fair to compare the Z/28 and 392 Challenger at the drag strip then it is only fair we compare them on a road course too.

Thats fine with me. Compare all you want. Both are physically able to drive on a road course so in reality its possible. I have zero problems saying when the 392 is outgunned. You can compare them and ill say the 392 has no chance. What i wont say is you cant put a 392 on a road course bc it isnt a "road course" car.

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

You think an extra 15hp in the scat pack is really going to shave 0.5 sec off the E.T. and make it trap 5mph faster? Please elaborate.

You forgot the one thing that will make it happen. The 8spd. Dodge is literally advertising the 392 as a low 12sec car. That would mean 12.3 or lower to me. You better believe when owners get their hands on them there will be 11sec bone stock passes from a 485hp 4200lb car with 255 crap street tires. Something the more powerful, lighter z28 with WORLDS better rubber isnt doing.

So to answer your ques. .5 sec? Yes. 5mph? Idk. I could see 3. I could see it peaking at 117.

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

In a straight line, I should hope so. If Dodge fails to do this then they are even more hopeless than they appear. But will it be the better car? The GT500 was faster in every straight-line test vs the ZL1 but the ZL1 was consistently deemed the winner as it was the better car.

Again put down the mags. I can promise you the vast majority of gear heads would take the GT500 over the ZL1. Outside of this forum of course.

Forget the ZL1. I promise you the Hell Cat will destroy that car at the strip. Its benchmark is the GT500. We are literally discussing well reported cases of this car running 10sec passes off the trailer. Nearly a full sec quicker than the beast of a car GT500.

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

The other question will be price. How much is Dodge going to charge for the 392 dung pack and hell kitten? They realized they priced the SRT's too high and released the "core" models to better compete. Sadly this hasn't translated into competitive sales for the Challenger.

You're green with envy.

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Not according to AEP11 - it's apparently a "drivers race" if ET's are within 0.5 sec and traps within 5 mph.

Challenger SRT8
C&D: 0-60 in 4.5, 12.9 1/4mile at 114mph, 4203lbs
MotorTrend: 0-60 in 4.6, 13.0 1/4mile at 111.3mph, 4260lbs
Edmunds: 0-60 in 4.7, 12.9 1/4mile at 111.0mph, 4257lbs
Edmunds: 0-60 in 4.5, 12.6 1/4mile at 112.1mph, 4257lbs

Camaro SS
Motor Trend: 13.1 sec @ 110.8 mph
Car and Driver: 13.0 sec @ 111 mph
Road & Track: 13.0 sec @ 110.7 mph
Inside Line: 13.1 sec @ 110.4 mph

I have no prob saying the SS and 392 is a drivers race. 5.0 392 and SS are all close enough to be a drivers race.

No more long responses please! Sheesh! LOL

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The Hellcat will be a stout competitor... on the drag strip. But in every other performance category that matters, sadly, it will fall short. Dodge needs a new platform BAD. The current platform was not designed for what they are trying to do with this car. The engineers say that the 275's are the max tire they can put on this car from the factory, which is sad for a so called performance car.

Also, the Hellcat will have limited limelight and will be overshadowed by the GT350/500 and the 6th Gen offerings. The '15 Mustang GT350 is right around the corner set to debut in spring of '15. The Mustang is on a brand new platform that has the GT outperforming the Boss 302 lap times. The 6th gen Camaro will be on a new platform that same time frame while the Challengers new platform wont be here till 2018!! Yep, 2015 - 2018 will be some interesting years, again, between Ford and GM.

[rocket403]

I have said all along that we will find out soon on what the Hellcat is all about, and I compare it to the ZL1 and GT 500. I also said that we will need to see how the changes to the Challenger suspension change it's track manners.

People bring up the fact that the Camaro is the track star because that is what GM in interested in, they are not into the 1/4 mile coming out with a 580hp SC car to GT 500 664 and now a Hellcat with 600+ hp, dont know how many people will use the track manners of the Camaro, but I do know that many people will be using the 1/4 mile.

GM has left it to the aftermarket to bring up the slack

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Originally Posted by AEP11

...It doesnt need launch control with 305 race tires...with WORLDS better rubber isnt doing.

If you like 1/4 as you say you do, you should know this simple fact that the P Zero Trofeo R tires ARE NOT a drag strip tire, they are a road course tire. Try launching 420 lb-ft on a 30 series tire. either your spinning the first 60ft or riding the clutch. I don't care how wide your rubber is if you have a low profile sidewall (35 series and below) good luck getting traction off the line.

Originally Posted by AEP11

You forgot the one thing that will make it happen. The 8spd. Dodge is literally advertising the 392 as a low 12sec car. That would mean 12.3 or lower to me. You better believe when owners get their hands on them there will be 11sec bone stock passes from a 485hp 4200lb car with 255 crap street tires. Something the more powerful, lighter z28
So to answer your ques.

Compare Manual vs. Manual than see what the times are. BTW, what is Dodge saying for the Manual 392 times?

Originally Posted by AEP11

Its benchmark is the GT500.

Do you have any proof to that? GM and Ford made it very clear what car they were targeting when they release the ZL1, Boss 302, GT500, 1LE, Z/28 etc. From the videos of the hellcat there is no mention of competitor/benchmark cars...hmm...suspicious.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by AEP11

Its shitty bc it isnt an 11 sec car. It doesnt need launch control with 305 race tires. Last i heard a manual puts more power to the ground and traps higher. What do C6Z's weigh? 3200lbs? Thats a 600lb difference but those cars have been high 10's BONE STOCK with the same engine. 1000lbs=1 sec in the 1/4 roughly right? So at 4200lbs that car should be able to make an 11sec pass right? Whats the prob? Its a half second off of that while being 400lbs lighter. As i said its put down shitty 1/4 time thus far for its power to weight ratio.

I'm not sure why this is difficult for you to understand. Let me say it again.

The Z/28 was not designed, nor is it marketed for the drag strip.

You can try and calculate what you think it should run based on your ricer math or you can look at ACTUAL runs and see that it is exactly where it should be for its weight and power.

Originally Posted by AEP11

What does this have to do with the Hellcat? Nothing. I brought it up bc you said its a no no to bring up z28 1/4 times due to it not being a "drag car". The GTR was not built for the strip period. Its great on a road course and its already been stated by your beloved mags that if it had tires as good as the z28 it would rape it on the playground the Z was designed for. Also last i checked a DCT wasnt designed for the drag strip. Pretty sure 2spd powerglides are popular there. As far as more power. So it puts down 20 more hp yet runs 8mph faster in the 1/4 at the same weight. Man that Z's crazy impressive i tell ya.

The GTR lays down exceptional numbers at the strip because it is AWD, has launch control, a lightning fast, automatically shifting transmission and puts 455hp/420ft-lbs to the ground. Is this difficult for you to grasp?

Originally Posted by AEP11

Not at all but its silly to compare tires from a track built car thats gutted with no ac, speakers, or carpet that comes with basically street leagal slicks that come in at 305.

Silly to compare a track car to a land yacht to begin with, yet you're intent on doing it. When do we get to talk about the Challenger's track performance?

Originally Posted by AEP11

See when I read this it almost made me not even respond at all.

Its a 172ft/sec @ 117mph! The Z28 only reaches 117mph at the finish line. It DOES NOT carry that from the second the light turns green my friend. The race would be a few car lengths at most.

Of course it doesn't carry that speed from the start. Since you seem to be troubled by math, let me help you. When the Z/28 reaches 1320', it is 0.5 seconds ahead of the loser who is traveling at 112mph when it reaches 1320'. The distance between them is 112mph multiplied by 1.466 equals 164.2 feet per second multiplied by 0.5 seconds which is the difference in E.T. and you have 82 feet. The average school bus in the U.S. is approximately 40 feet long. 82 divided by 40 is 2 school bus lengths. This is NOT a drivers race.
http://www.draglist.com/stories/SOD%...SOD-042202.htm
http://www.wallaceracing.com/mov-dist.php

Originally Posted by AEP11

Thats fine with me. Compare all you want. Both are physically able to drive on a road course so in reality its possible. I have zero problems saying when the 392 is outgunned. You can compare them and ill say the 392 has no chance. What i wont say is you cant put a 392 on a road course bc it isnt a "road course" car.

Yet you insist on comparing the Z/28 to the Challenger on a drag strip!?

Originally Posted by AEP11

You forgot the one thing that will make it happen. The 8spd. Dodge is literally advertising the 392 as a low 12sec car. That would mean 12.3 or lower to me. You better believe when owners get their hands on them there will be 11sec bone stock passes from a 485hp 4200lb car with 255 crap street tires. Something the more powerful, lighter z28 with WORLDS better rubber isnt doing.

Here we go with the excuses again. So it needs an automatic transmission to beat a track-oriented Camaro with a manual transmission down a drag strip? What else? Lower tire pressure, after the engine is broken in, downhill, with the wind at its back? Would that help too? Are Dodge fans born desperate or do they become that way over time?

Originally Posted by AEP11

Again put down the mags. I can promise you the vast majority of gear heads would take the GT500 over the ZL1. Outside of this forum of course.

Really? The Camaro outsells the Mustang for 5 straight years. People are choosing the GT500 the "vast majority" of the time? How many GT500's does Ford sell annually? Have you driven the GT500? How about the ZL1?

Originally Posted by AEP11

Forget the ZL1. I promise you the Hell Cat will destroy that car at the strip. Its benchmark is the GT500. We are literally discussing well reported cases of this car running 10sec passes off the trailer. Nearly a full sec quicker than the beast of a car GT500.

And I'll say again it had better be faster than the ZL1 on a drag strip considering it will cost considerably more. The real question is (and you still haven't answered) is will it be the better car? Anyone can drop a bigger engine into a chassis and make it go faster in a straight-line. Can Dodge build the better car and justify the lofty price?

Originally Posted by AEP11

You're green with envy.

Not particularly. I have yet to drive a Challenger I can describe as "dynamic", "responsive", "engaging", or a "drivers car". They really do nothing for me except capture that retro Challenger look.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by rocket403

I have said all along that we will find out soon on what the Hellcat is all about, and I compare it to the ZL1 and GT 500. I also said that we will need to see how the changes to the Challenger suspension change it's track manners.

Agreed

Originally Posted by rocket403

People bring up the fact that the Camaro is the track star because that is what GM in interested in, they are not into the 1/4 mile coming out with a 580hp SC car to GT 500 664 and now a Hellcat with 600+ hp, dont know how many people will use the track manners of the Camaro, but I do know that many people will be using the 1/4 mile.

The 580hp ZL1 was released in 2012. The 664hp GT500 was released in 2013 in response to the ZL1. The XXXhp Hellcat released in 2015 in response to both.

Many people that YOU know may be limiting themselves to drag strips, but many people I know are avid track/autocross drivers. These cars are not limited to drag strips as they once were. They are much more than that now. At least the Chevy and Ford offerings anyway.

[rocket403]

Medisin you are anti Dodge it would not mater to you what this car do you will find a flaw
rather than embrace the big three for producing these cars you would rather that Dodge start making Neons and Intrepids and leave the rear drive and V8 to Chevy and Ford

I am glad that they have the Camaro, Mustang and Challenger, people can go out and pick the car that works for them. I have the car that speaks to me, my friend has the Camaro and that works for him.

Motor Trend picked the Mustang as their Drivers car followed by the Challenger and Camaro for Dynamic, responsive, engaging, and a drivers car.

Not limiting myself have always been into the 1/4 we would race in the 1/4 every weekend at the track or on the street, me and 100 people that I have know in the 30 years racing, never has someone come to me and said my car will beat yours in the road course but I have to many times to count people say mine is faster than yours in the 1/4 so we would settle it. Road course is secondary to most people to 1/4 mile I could care less about road times 1/4 mile is all that matters.

[rocket403]

Don't forget the Viper if you want a track car LOL

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by rocket403

Medisin you are anti Dodge it would not mater to you what this car do you will find a flaw
rather than embrace the big three for producing these cars you would rather that Dodge start making Neons and Intrepids and leave the rear drive and V8 to Chevy and Ford

I am glad that they have the Camaro, Mustang and Challenger, people can go out and pick the car that works for them. I have the car that speaks to me, my friend has the Camaro and that works for him.

Motor Trend picked the Mustang as their Drivers car followed by the Challenger and Camaro for Dynamic, responsive, engaging, and a drivers car.

Not limiting myself have always been into the 1/4 we would race in the 1/4 every weekend at the track or on the street, me and 100 people that I have know in the 30 years racing, never has someone come to me and said my car will beat yours in the road course but I have to many times to count people say mine is faster than yours in the 1/4 so we would settle it. Road course is secondary to most people to 1/4 mile I could care less about road times 1/4 mile is all that matters.

I'm not anti-Dodge, nor am I pro-GM. I've owned far more Chrysler products than I have GM over the years. I am simply not impressed by Dodge's offerings of late. They are stuck on an overweight, very dated platform and offer very little reason to choose a car like a Challenger over cars like the Camaro and Mustang. I have applauded Dodge for offering a full-size RWD, V8 powered sedan at a time when neither Ford nor Chevy did. I'm thrilled they brought back the Challenger, I just wish it were competitive in the segment.

You're right, people are free to pick the best car for them. And those people choose the Mustang and Camaro overwhelmingly.

Please show me where the Challenger was called dynamic, responsive, engaging, or a drivers car.

So you admit you have been in the same rut with the same people for 30 years. There is a great wide world of motorsports out there beyond the 1320'? Have you ever even tried? Times have changed my friend, you're still living in the past.

Originally Posted by rocket403

Don't forget the Viper if you want a track car LOL

Yes, it has already proven to be lackluster.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...srt_viper_gts/
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._srt_viper_ta/
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/08/28/s...tingray-video/
http://http://www.autoblog.com/2014/...omparison-test
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/19/s...er-slow-sales/
http://jalopnik.com/is-the-650-hp-co...ers-1588262012