GM fined 35 million

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by citabria7

Agenda? Hah! Any agenda if you wish to call it that, is to get GM to stand up and do what is right, instead of hiding and lying. New concept for some people, right? And before you lie any more, way fewer than half my posts are about the recalls.

I never lied about anything...
You better go back and look at your previous posts....
As of right now you have 69 posts and 43 are in threads about Recalls and GM...

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Angrybird 12

Explain how shutting off an ignition switch causes an accident?

If automatic transmission equipped, engine may completely stop when hydraulic pressure in the transmission drops too low to hold the friction elements engaged. Then lose manifold vacuum (power-assisted brakes). Need to have presence of mind to find Neutral and step on brake in order to restart, which takes time . . . meanwhile the rest of the situation could be headed toward Hell in a handbasket. Not completely unrecoverable, but I doubt many people are that capable.

Possibility of steering wheel lock engaging. There is a reason that racing organizations require the steering wheel lock to be disabled.

Lose all electrical things that need the key to be in to 'on' position in order to work, which might include EPAS in cars so equipped.

If manual transmission equipped, the steering wheel lock and electrical devices needing key on status issues are still present.


Norm

[Rhyder]

Originally Posted by McRat

How long have been an engineer now?

And exactly how much QC experience you sitting on?

Bad engineering was the Tacoma Narrows bridge, SRB's on the shuttle, and the Hubble telescope. Honorable mention would the version of iPhone where holding the phone affected the antenna signal.

More to the point, what have you designed in your life? Show us.

GM originally admitted they knew about the faulty ignition switch and did not tell anyone......what does anyone need an engineering description for? GM isnt even trying to deny it now, they are just trying to pass the blame.....muddy the waters.......

There is no argument that GM knew about a faulty part that they covered it up, they admitted it in the original announcement.

At this point it doesn't matter if the drivers were three sheets to the wind, were hanging their rears out the window and driving without a steering wheel....

The fact is GM knew about a defect in the vehicle that was potentially unsafe, and not only chose to not fix it but chose to hide it and deny it when people started having accidents because of it.

why everyone is caught up on weather everyone who drives should be as skilled as a race car driver or if there were additional issues involved ion the accident I don't know, I can only assume its an attempt to muddy the waters.


The only thing that matters is they knew, and even after it started causing issues actively worked to hide it and publicly denied it, allowing even more people to be put at risk.....even if no one had ever been hurt, the fact they knew the cars were unsafe and still sold them to people keeping silent is criminal and unacceptable.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

If automatic transmission equipped, engine may completely stop when hydraulic pressure in the transmission drops too low to hold the friction elements engaged. Then lose manifold vacuum (power-assisted brakes). Need to have presence of mind to find Neutral and step on brake in order to restart, which takes time . . . meanwhile the rest of the situation could be headed toward Hell in a handbasket. Not completely unrecoverable, but I doubt many people are that capable.

Possibility of steering wheel lock engaging. There is a reason that racing organizations require the steering wheel lock to be disabled.

Lose all electrical things that need the key to be in to 'on' position in order to work, which might include EPAS in cars so equipped.

If manual transmission equipped, the steering wheel lock and electrical devices needing key on status issues are still present.


Norm

You forget that you can't turn the switch to the lock position to lock the steering wheel without putting the car in park on an automatic. On all the manuals I have driven you have a button or lever to push to be able to rotate the ignition switch to the lock position. As far as all the reports the ignition switches have always been reported in the accessory position and not lock.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Angrybird 12

You forget that you can't turn the switch to the lock position to lock the steering wheel without putting the car in park on an automatic.

Point taken.

Remember this is just a mechanical issue with the assembly, not a electrical issue other than it disabling the airbags when the switch is not in the on position.

Does ABS work when the switch is not in the on position? Stabilitrak? EPAS?


Norm

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Point taken.


Does ABS work when the switch is not in the on position? Stabilitrak? EPAS?


Norm

Does not having any of those make you lose control? Can you still stop a car without them?
Maybe it's because of all these nannies we have today drivers have forgotten car control. The smarter we make the cars the dumber we make the drivers.

[Norm Peterson]

Everybody should be able to live without the nannies at least for the brief period of time involved here . . . but if you lose EPAS, the matter of cranking the steering wheel over with sufficient speed to successfully keep a two ton vehicle on the black stuff and out of other vehicles may be beyond the physical capabilities of some or maybe even many drivers. We do keep hearing about EPAS going wonky all by itself and people are pretty unhappy when it does happen (IIRC a number of accidents have resulted).


Norm

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Everybody should be able to live without the nannies at least for the brief period of time involved here . . . but if you lose EPAS, the matter of cranking the steering wheel over with sufficient speed to successfully keep a two ton vehicle on the black stuff and out of other vehicles may be beyond the physical capabilities of some or maybe even many drivers. We do keep hearing about EPAS going wonky all by itself and people are pretty unhappy when it does happen (IIRC a number of accidents have resulted).


Norm

I can't speak from any first hand knowledge. I won't make any assumptions based on that.
I do have personal experience with some of the cars on the ignition recall list. I previously owned 4 of them. I never had any issues with any of them.

[MLL67RSSS]

Originally Posted by Rhyder

I don't give a rats rear what other issues influenced the death or injury...if a known defect on a vehicle was even one of them then the company is liable....whos to say that the car losing control wasn't the final piece that caused the death, that if that hadn't happened they wouldn't of recovered?

I also think its lousy reporting and the reporter is pretty obviously bought and paid for.......

I mean unless they can prove that every single death and injury...every single one....was conclusively not caused by the car going out of control then they should get hammered....it doesn't matter if 99% of the cases get thrown out...if there's one single instance that is to much.....anything else, including this article, is simple misdirection and its criminal......

Could you please direct me to any site that shows any of the cases mentioned are incorrect or non-factual. His information came from court documents. I have and open mind, please enlighten me and show me where his information is shown to be incorrect.

[MLL67RSSS]

Originally Posted by citabria7

By the way, it happened to a GM Exec, driving a Cobalt to the press reveal. Ran off the road, and had to have the engineers figure it out. Still went on with production with no changes. Great integrity, right?

Not that I don't believe you but could you cite a reference/link where you obtained such knowledge?

[Rhyder]

Originally Posted by MLL67RSSS

Could you please direct me to any site that shows any of the cases mentioned are incorrect or non-factual. His information came from court documents. I have and open mind, please enlighten me and show me where his information is shown to be incorrect.

if you read my post i dont ever say he is inaccurate...he is simply redirecting on some of the cases, implying that they all are incorrect, he is amazingly biased and only reporting the few factual points he wants to......

Ill stand by my statement that non of that matters....

The fact that GM knew they had a faulty part that was potentially dangerous and not only chose not to fix it and on top of that covered it up is the issue and its criminal

For that matter any company knowing they are selling something faulty and choosing not to fix it and telling the customer they were wrong when it was pointed out and continuing to sell that product even after that is pretty slimy to begin with, not even counting possible hazards to the owner.

At best GM has shown themselves to be pretty unethical and slimy by continuing to sell a product they knew was defective in some way.

But back to your question...please point out or link where I stated that anything reported was inaccurate.

[McRat]

Dirty little secret.

There is no such animal as perfection. The current goal it to exceed 6 sigma.

Nearly every part on an aircraft or car has a failure history. The MRB paperwork on a single 747 weighs more than the aircraft.

At this point, do you throw the airplane away? No, you do an assessment of failure probability and do cost analysis. This is what is taught in college.

Cars are no different and every brand of car now has govtlawyermedia at their throats for not being perfect. The automobile industry is required not only to sell you a cheap car, but to pile hundreds of GovLaw parts on to it that really aren't logical.

In this case, GM saw that if somebody hung a bunch of weight off the ignition, the lock could break. Which is true for all cars made that use key ignitions. And has always been true. But up until today, it was never considered to be a lethal flaw except a very, very small statistical element.

Today, it's the automotive industry. Other industries are already gone.

Here's the risk. If a govlaw can make a trillion dollars by proving the aircraft mfrs sell a dangerous product, and know about it, and sell it regardless...

Would govlaw do what is right for humanity, or would they destroy air travel?

We all know the answer to that.

[McRat]

Sidebar -

The CDC has decided to use lawyers instead of lab rats for science experiments.
The decision was simple:

1) Lawyers are more plentiful.
2) The lab assistants don't get attached to them.
3) There are things not even a rat will do. Lawyers will though.

[Rhyder]

Originally Posted by McRat

Dirty little secret.

There is no such animal as perfection. The current goal it to exceed 6 sigma.

Nearly every part on an aircraft or car has a failure history. The MRB paperwork on a single 747 weighs more than the aircraft.

At this point, do you throw the airplane away? No, you do an assessment of failure probability and do cost analysis. This is what is taught in college.

Cars are no different and every brand of car now has govtlawyermedia at their throats for not being perfect. The automobile industry is required not only to sell you a cheap car, but to pile hundreds of GovLaw parts on to it that really aren't logical.

In this case, GM saw that if somebody hung a bunch of weight off the ignition, the lock could break. Which is true for all cars made that use key ignitions. And has always been true. But up until today, it was never considered to be a lethal flaw except a very, very small statistical element.

Today, it's the automotive industry. Other industries are already gone.

Here's the risk. If a govlaw can make a trillion dollars by proving the aircraft mfrs sell a dangerous product, and know about it, and sell it regardless...

Would govlaw do what is right for humanity, or would they destroy air travel?

We all know the answer to that.

I don't have a problem with it not being perfect, don't have problem with recalls, stuff happens, things break, you can only do the best you can do.

My problem is when they knowingly sell a product that is defective, they knew its potentially injury or death causing, or why would they immediately go into cover up mode and hide the details..then use their lawyers to destroy anyone who implies this is an issue in order to further hide this. That's where I have a problem.

They sell a car and it starts rubbing holes in the convertible roof...that's a defect they probably didn't catch in manufacturing, they came around when there had been enough people consistently having the problem. I'm good with that kind of stuff, I don't expect everything to be perfect.

Its when they criminally cover things up and actively risk people unknowingly to the people who are buying their products.

Also I don't think putting GM out of business, not that I think it will come to that, would kill the auto industry. Someone would purchase the parts and keep on plugging on, but maybe they wouldn't be the rolling disaster of management GM has been aside from the short time Whitacre was CEO. And as I said in an earlier post, maybe it would at least make other companies pause before putting out dangerous products.