GM fined 35 million

[citabria7]

Originally Posted by Rhyder

I think there's definitely some over reaction on this but there's also grounds for much of the fining etc going on. I figure when its all said and done and the spin doctors are through, it will be somewhere in the middle. GM was negligent, but not to the degree it appears at this time.


I'm OK with the over reaction though. I'm tired of hearing about car companies doing math and figuring this many recalls will cost x, but if we don't recall this many people might die and the lawsuits if they can prove it will only cost y, so its cheaper to take a chance and not do the recall. Its like the airlines not fixing their planes because the death notes will be less if the plane crashes and maybe the plane wont crash and it wont cost them anything. Or the drug companies putting out drugs they know will kill people over time because they figure they will make 16 billion on it before people start dying and then simply have to stop selling it and pay 8 billion in fines and lawsuits, making 8 billion in profit.I'm disgusted with that mentality.

Bring the hammer down on GM, smash them good, cost them a bundle. Do the same to Ford next week if they have a failure they knew about and knew it could cause deaths and chose not to recall. Crush Pfizer next time they put a drug out that's not fully tested or they knew had side affects that they downplayed or hid. Stop this gambling with lives or the subtraction method they come up with where they decide they will make more money ignoring the problem no matter the potential cost in lives or health.

They need to make these companies pay so much that its actually cheaper to fix the problem before its a problem, so expensive they don't even bother doing the cost vs penalty studies any more.

I know other companies have done it before, but we have to start somewhere and GM is in the barrel at this moment. If it crushes GM into non existence, that's a harsh and troubling thing, but tomorrow you wont see Ford not doing a recall, you wont see Pfizer ignoring the testing data...were not talking about a mistake, or something unforeseen happening....were talking about things the company knew were dangerous and potentially life threatening, and was infinity correctable, and for whatever reason actively choose to hide and ignore......isn't human life and the moral ethical thing to do worth it?

Well said, and I agree

[citabria7]

Originally Posted by MLL67RSSS

Not condoning GM's response, or lack thereof, to the issue. But here are the facts for many of the 13 fatalities cited in the Federal investigation.

Star-Telegram Ed Wallace article:

http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/04...lity.html?rh=1

"Amber Marie Rose, 16, has a fight with her boyfriend at a party. Intoxicated, not wearing a seatbelt, she tears off doing 69 mph in a residential neighborhood, on the wrong side of the road — until she enters the cul-de-sac. She slams into a driveway curb and then into a tree.

Megan Phillips is driving at 71 mph on a rural Wisconsin road. She drifts off road and onto a driveway curb and goes airborne for 59 feet before crashing into a utility box and trees, killing her two unbelted passengers. Interestingly, Phillips blamed herself for the accident, until she heard about the recall. (If a non-running car had caused the accident, wouldn’t she said that from day one?)

Hasayan Chansuthus of Nashville, after drinking with her boyfriend, has a blood alcohol content of .19; driving 70 mph on the Interstate in the rain, she sideswipes a VW, sending her off the freeway into a tree.

Joey Harding, 19, drinking with friends in his mother’s garage, borrows his friend’s Cobalt at 3 in the morning. His blood alcohol content .12, he’s doing 85 in a 45mph zone with predictable results.

Ryan Quigley, 23, leaves a party with friends on a rural New York road in winter weather conditions; sliding down an embankment at 1 a.m., he ends up in the stream below. New York State Police blame the accident on road conditions, excessive speed and alcohol. Infuriated, local police arrest the three people who threw that party for serving alcohol to minors.

Christopher Hamberg, 18, Clearlake, Texas, driving on NASA Parkway at 4:30 in the morning, slams up against the median and rolls the Cobalt. Local police say he was doing only 45 mph, but it’s almost impossible to believe that’s fast enough to roll a car. (The reason I suggested strongly that Congress needs the Black Box data.) No word on alcohol in that case, but we do know he was not wearing a seatbelt.

Kelly Ruddy, 21, enters I-81 at an excessive speed, according to local police, wearing no seatbelt, and simply loses control of the vehicle.

Brooke Melton, 29, hydroplaning on a Georgia road in the rain, loses control of her vehicle.

These are seven of the high-profile media cases resulting in 10 fatalities, and only Brooke Melton was over 25 years old. In case you weren’t counting, at least four, possibly more, involved intoxication.


All seven involved high rates of speed, or unsafe speeds given the road conditions. At least seven weren’t wearing seatbelts, and at least five slammed into cars, medians or driveway curbs. Six happened at night — four verified as being after midnight.

[B]Here’s the point: If all seven of these accidents involved excessive speed, why does anyone think the ignition key had already fallen into the Accessory position — which would have turned the engine off? You can’t drive 69, 70, 71 or 85 mph, or roll your car, with the engine off: It’s got to be running. Which means there’s a reasonable possibility in the majority of these cases that what moved the ignition from Run to Accessory was the extreme physical impact of the accidents."

I do however think you can roll a car at 45MPH with the right, or should I say "wrong" conditions.

And with all the thread moves around here, still wondering why this "doesn't involve Camaros" thread is in the 5th gen Camaro general discussion forum.

Because it involves GM, and what to expect from them. They made the Camaros. Trying to get it eliminated from the forum to keep,the truth from being told is classic GM

[Jackass]

Originally Posted by Austin45

That is crazy? How can GM be blamed for the majority of those?

If one has enough $$$$$$$$$$$ , PR can and do miracles
It happen more times than one want to admit

Overturn at 45 ? You bet your horse it can be done , but no one can prove either way that those cases above are the final findings
The blaming game is going to be a long one , but GM still did nothing to fix anything
And that's the sticking point on the all thing , had GM and their Big Chiefs moved on fixing things back then , we would never need to be talking about this
They picked the road to hell , well , they ( GM ) are getting close to the destination

[citabria7]

Originally Posted by Jackass

I can't believe what you trying to say
Just wonder , if someone close to you , was on those 13 known people killed by that very same defect if you would be saying the same

And if you respond to this post with a yes , you are a freaking LIAR

You may as well join those that responded with a. I TAKE THE FIFTH sh,,t

There are GM employees on a lot of forums for GM cars, trying to make excuses and if possible, get anything critical of GM removed from the forums.

[Jackass]

Originally Posted by citabria7

There are GM employees on a lot of forums for GM cars, trying to make excuses and if possible, get anything critical of GM removed from the forums.

It's called P R , and like I said above , there is way more than one admit , or know
It's like the say that goes something like this

If one say a lie, long enough and loud enough , it becomes the truce
At first I didn't believe it , but when start paying more attention to the message
it's all over the place

It's like the statistics , when can make it look the way one wants ( depending on who is paying for it )

[citabria7]

Originally Posted by Jackass

It's called P R , and like I said above , there is way more than one admit , or know
It's like the say that goes something like this

If one say a lie, long enough and loud enough , it becomes the truce
At first I didn't believe it , but when start paying more attention to the message
it's all over the place

It's like the statistics , when can make it look the way one wants ( depending on who is paying for it )

I know it is PR. But the New GM Barra is trying to claim exists, doesn't . It is the same old screw the customer, even if it means killing them company attitude as before.

[Austin45]

Originally Posted by Jackass

If one has enough $$$$$$$$$$$ , PR can and do miracles
It happen more times than one want to admit

Overturn at 45 ? You bet your horse it can be done , but no one can prove either way that those cases above are the final findings
The blaming game is going to be a long one , but GM still did nothing to fix anything
And that's the sticking point on the all thing , had GM and their Big Chiefs moved on fixing things back then , we would never need to be talking about this
They picked the road to hell , well , they ( GM ) are getting close to the destination

I do agree, a vehicle can very easily overturn at 45; however, when it comes to the big chiefs I think corporate culture is to blame there. It was discouraged to talk about safety defects and to hide those things from the upper levels because once they know I believe the company has 5 business days to report it to NHTSA. NHTSA is also to blame for creating that environment in the first place (but not all the blame). I was reading a USA Today article about words that were banned to be used at GM like "defect" and "widow maker" that really put it into perspective. All automotive companies have such lists, the fact that GM's was made public just confirms it. I think the problem was pin pointed to a handful of engineers, then they tried to fix the problem in 2007 with a new ignition switch but didn't give it a new part number further showing that it was a cover up. Back to NHTSA, they received multiple complaints about the problem, why did they never investigate it?

I think the end result of all of this is a win for GM and their customers. Now engineers can talk freely about safety defects and something can be done about. The culture has been changed, improving our end product.

[MLL67RSSS]

Originally Posted by citabria7

Because it involves GM, and what to expect from them. They made the Camaros. Trying to get it eliminated from the forum to keep,the truth from being told is classic GM

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!? Who said it should be eliminated? The thread belongs in the General Automotive Discussion Forum, nothing to do with Camaros! Baffles me the threads they move and the ones they don't, pretty inconsistent.

[DRKS1D3]

Originally Posted by Todd in Vancouver

+1

Toyota gas pedal sticking - found guilty because people can't figure out to keep their floor matts away from the gas

Ford - anyone remember the Pinto just for starters

Etc. Etc. etc. you get the picture.

ALL Car companies have these issues and all of them have hid things from consumers at one point or another. GM just got caught and for whatever reason the media has decided to make it their lead story, blame it on a slow news day. It's the same issue with Pit Bulls, the media LOVES a good Pit Bull headline but all other dog issues are missing the dogs breed.

We have a media problem, and until the public tells the media we want news, not their opinion or agenda, nothing will change.

Exactly. "But I heard it on the news, it must be true.".

[citabria7]

Originally Posted by MLL67RSSS

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!? Who said it should be eliminated? The thread belongs in the General Automotive Discussion Forum, nothing to do with Camaros! Baffles me the threads they move and the ones they don't, pretty inconsistent.

I would submit that it does have to do with Camaros. With the hiding of safety defects, we don't know what is lurking in the Camaros, waiting to jump up and bite us. So far, most, other than convertibles, seem pretty good. But being aware of the penchant for lying and hiding defects might help keep Camaro owners alert. (Maybe alive) I do agree that the moving of threads seems hap-hazard.

[citabria7]

Originally Posted by Austin45

I do agree, a vehicle can very easily overturn at 45; however, when it comes to the big chiefs I think corporate culture is to blame there. It was discouraged to talk about safety defects and to hide those things from the upper levels because once they know I believe the company has 5 business days to report it to NHTSA. NHTSA is also to blame for creating that environment in the first place (but not all the blame). I was reading a USA Today article about words that were banned to be used at GM like "defect" and "widow maker" that really put it into perspective. All automotive companies have such lists, the fact that GM's was made public just confirms it. I think the problem was pin pointed to a handful of engineers, then they tried to fix the problem in 2007 with a new ignition switch but didn't give it a new part number further showing that it was a cover up. Back to NHTSA, they received multiple complaints about the problem, why did they never investigate it?

I think the end result of all of this is a win for GM and their customers. Now engineers can talk freely about safety defects and something can be done about. The culture has been changed, improving our end product.

NHTSA has failed to investigate a lot of known issues. Several with GM cars now. FYI: my 2014 Impala loaner that I am using while my Solstice is waiting parts, also,shut down in traffic. The key, from the slightest touch, switched to off. I called GM, and they were completely not interested in what happened. Other safety issues withSolstices and HHR's, to long to go into here. I do not see how 13 dead, and the endless problems now showing up, long deliberately hidden by GM is a win for GM

[Norm Peterson]

I find it a little difficult to blame the engineers for not creating a new part number, because control of part numbers is really a business-oriented matter for things like corporate databases and inventory control. Even a revised part should normally get a new number since it would be superseding or at the very least supplementing the original (and in this case questionable/suspect/deficient/defective - your choice) part. Any "cover-up" belongs either within the entity charged with part number control or with anybody with the authority to direct that the same old part number be maintained for the new and improved part.

FWIW, in Ford's part numbering system, such a change in the ignition switch would get the new part a different suffix while keeping the same prefix and main part number. I'm not trying to say that's a better system, although once you understand its logic it's probably easier to realize that revisions to parts have been made.


Norm

[citabria7]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I find it a little difficult to blame the engineers for not creating a new part number, because control of part numbers is really a business-oriented matter for things like corporate databases and inventory control. Even a revised part should normally get a new number since it would be superseding or at the very least supplementing the original (and in this case questionable/suspect/deficient/defective - your choice) part. Any "cover-up" belongs either within the entity charged with part number control or with anybody with the authority to direct that the same old part number be maintained for the new and improved part.

FWIW, in Ford's part numbering system, such a change in the ignition switch would get the new part a different suffix while keeping the same prefix and main part number. I'm not trying to say that's a better system, although once you understand its logic it's probably easier to realize that revisions to parts have been made.


Norm

I wouldn't think it would be up to the engineers. It would be up to management. And we know what their integrity is like.

[citabria7]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Less widely known now is that the top of the gas tank in the early Mustangs at least up through 1966 was also directly part of the floor of the trunk, and there was no metal firewall separating the trunk from the back seat. I'd take pictures for you, but I'd have to move too much stuff..




Fixed. Shakespeare had it right all those centuries ago . . .




4. A few of those idiots are people who make bad decisions at large corporations.




I'd go that far.

Fabrication tolerances being what they are, some ignition switch units would be bound to be more sensitive to unintended shut-off than others.


At a track day, I've seen (albeit from some distance) what can happen when a normal-size car unexpectedly loses only its power steering at or just before a turn. At least the engine continued to run and the brakes continued to have vacuum assist, and the air bags would have functioned if the situation deteriorated further than just the car putting all four wheels off the pavement at 60 mph or so. Just the thought that some management types could either expect random inexperienced drivers to cope with a PS loss at any speed above a walk (and without the air bags and possibly brakes) - or just write them off as collateral damage - boggles the mind. The individual decisions made are where the blame belongs.


Norm

So it would sure be nice to know the names of those who so cavalierly dismissed the lives of buyers