GM fined 35 million

[ChrisBlair]

Originally Posted by McRat

For the Legal Beagles out there:

Do they report Win/Loss ratios for lawyers?

Of course not. It Would Be Unethical. Or is that is that called Accountable?

Witch hunts are so 17th century Salem.

The Lawyer jokes are fun and all, but it's the same as anything else- you only hear about the scum lawyers that feed off despair. You never hear about anything else.

By comparison, if all you ever heard of was aircraft crashes, you'd never know of the millions of planes that make successful flights.

You have a problem with lawyers. Noted, we understand it now. Let's move on.

[jd10013]

not to mention people love to lump them all together, when typically it's the trial lawyers that are the unscrupulous ones. there just one of dozens of lawyers out there.

[Jackass]

Originally Posted by jd10013

not to mention people love to lump them all together, when typically it's the trial lawyers that are the unscrupulous ones. there just one of dozens of lawyers out there.

It seems like you are missing the point here

Again , they knew it 10 ( ten ) freaking years ago

What they did ?

NOTHING. Zero

[jd10013]

Originally Posted by Jackass

It seems like you are missing the point here

Again , they knew it 10 ( ten ) freaking years ago

What they did ?

NOTHING. Zero

no, I agree. read my posts in the thread. I totally get what is going on. the people claiming it's just drunk teens on dirt roads, or 5 lbs of weight on the key chain, or whatever haven't a clue as to what happened, and are just GM fanboys. the problem was first noticed by engineers testing the cars before any of them hit the road, and long before any accidents occurred. that's why the justice department is investigating, and will most likely settle for an amount somewhere north of what Toyota settle for, plus whatever it costs to settle all the civil cases that will go through the courts.. the 58 million is simply the maximum allowed for failing to report a safety defect.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

yes. the mustang was a pinto

Less widely known now is that the top of the gas tank in the early Mustangs at least up through 1966 was also directly part of the floor of the trunk, and there was no metal firewall separating the trunk from the back seat. I'd take pictures for you, but I'd have to move too much stuff..

Originally Posted by McRat

If only lawyers were all held to same yardstick of ethics as Engineers are.

The world would be a better place.

Fixed. Shakespeare had it right all those centuries ago . . .

Originally Posted by c-57d

So,
Let's review:
1. People are idiots.
2. People are 'sue happy'
3. People are idiots.
Did I miss anything?

4. A few of those idiots are people who make bad decisions at large corporations.

Originally Posted by Frank in MD

My understanding of this is GM knew there was a design flaw and neglected to take action to correct it, thus putting a vehicle on the road that was known to be potentially unsafe.

I'd go that far.

Fabrication tolerances being what they are, some ignition switch units would be bound to be more sensitive to unintended shut-off than others.


At a track day, I've seen (albeit from some distance) what can happen when a normal-size car unexpectedly loses only its power steering at or just before a turn. At least the engine continued to run and the brakes continued to have vacuum assist, and the air bags would have functioned if the situation deteriorated further than just the car putting all four wheels off the pavement at 60 mph or so. Just the thought that some management types could either expect random inexperienced drivers to cope with a PS loss at any speed above a walk (and without the air bags and possibly brakes) - or just write them off as collateral damage - boggles the mind. The individual decisions made are where the blame belongs.


Norm

[Wizard1183]

Originally Posted by McRat

Warren Buffet is a money hungry bitch who has never had dirt under his nails.

He "plays" the media to make money move.

If you have enough capitalization, you make bucks when the market goes up, and when it goes down, and when it just fkg sits there. You make it move with the media.

The stock market is a dumb joke. Really, was Apple ever a real player in the world economy? No. Not ever. There were internet companies that make stockholders billions that you can't even remember their names.

It's a form of legal gambling where the "house" is those with enough money to change your cards.

Fck Warren Buffet and his "I don't pay enough taxes, so listen to ME!!!".

He's a cuunt just trying to play the public as idiots. He should be in prison for fraud.

For you to be that angry you must've lost your ass off following his advice lol. I never follow any analysts advice. They manipulate the market. But I enjoy playing in it. Nokia has done well. But anyway, off topic.

[SimpleGreen]

It would have been in GM's best interest to jump on this ship while it was still at port. It will be a bit of a mess now I'd say.

Originally Posted by abaucom21

How does the average driver know what to do when a faulty tire blows at high speed or a loss of power steering and power brakes. You only have an instant to react. Have you every tried to stop a car when power steering and or power brakes fail or had a high speed tire blow out. I have experienced all the above and let me clue you in even the most experienced driver might not be able to avoid a crash.

Also, none of this would be an issue if people would just learn how drive a vehicle... has to be one of the most ill informed comments I have seen posted on Camaro5 in the last two months.

My girlfriend drives a '98 Mercury Grand Marquis without power steering. Every day. Has been doing it for over a year. We haven't bothered to mess with it because at anymore more than a crawl a car will turn just fine regardless of power assist.

We drove a '94 Corvette 20 hours, round trip, with no power brakes. No drama.

I do agree with high speed blowouts, though. That can be hairy.

As for ignition switches? I can understand some people not knowing how to immediately react to the ignition shutting off. Some people just don't have that automatic response in their mind. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if some woman with a key chain full of crap was driving though a curve, ignition shuts off to the wheel lock, and upon the exit of the turn the wheel is locked and she plows off into the woods.

It's not smart to have 10 tons of junk hanging out of your ignition switch, but it's not hard to engineer an ignition switch to stand your key vertical when in 'run'.

All being said, hopefully GM get's through it, learns something, and we'll get to see something else on the news.

I for one have nothing on my Camaro key but the dealership pendant.

[jd10013]

Originally Posted by SimpleGreen

All being said, hopefully GM get's through it, learns something, and we'll get to see something else on the news.

they will. they'll settle on a fine with the justice department like Toyota did and close the case. they'll have to make multimillion settlements with (at a minimum) the family of the 13 people they admit died because of the faulty ignition. they'll then have to fight off the occasional lawsuit from the other 300 crashes NTSB has said could be linked to the ignition issue. and since the ignition design has been changed, and recalls done; once they finish with their payouts (I'm guessing close to 2 billion) it will finally be over.

GM can weather 2 billion, but it could go a little higher. the justice department will seek a penalty relative to what GM can afford to pay.

[Jackass]

Originally Posted by SimpleGreen

It would have been in GM's best interest to jump on this ship while it was still at port. It will be a bit of a mess now I'd say.




My girlfriend drives a '98 Mercury Grand Marquis without power steering. Every day. Has been doing it for over a year. We haven't bothered to mess with it because at anymore more than a crawl a car will turn just fine regardless of power assist.

We drove a '94 Corvette 20 hours, round trip, with no power brakes. No drama.


THATS okay when one is aware of it , one KNOWS and acts acordenely , it's a way different thing when one FINDS HIMSELF /HERSELF in the middle off a turn , and bam , nothing is working as expecteded


I do agree with high speed blowouts, though. That can be hairy.

As for ignition switches? I can understand some people not knowing how to immediately react to the ignition shutting off. Some people just don't have that automatic response in their mind. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if some woman with a key chain full of crap was driving though a curve, ignition shuts off to the wheel lock, and upon the exit of the turn the wheel is locked and she plows off into the woods.

Humans are a creature of habits , meaning one gets used to the way things work , and just expect it to work , when things happen to not work as expected it takes at least 1/2 to 3/4 off o second to react , that's a fact
By then , and depending on the situation it can be just too freaking late


It's not smart to have 10 tons of junk hanging out of your ignition switch, but it's not hard to engineer an ignition switch to stand your key vertical when in 'run'.

All being said, hopefully GM get's through it, learns something, and we'll get to see something else on the news.

I for one have nothing on my Camaro key but the dealership pendant.

Those are facts , it takes time to react !

[MLL67RSSS]

Not condoning GM's response, or lack thereof, to the issue. But here are the facts for many of the 13 fatalities cited in the Federal investigation.

Star-Telegram Ed Wallace article:

http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/04...lity.html?rh=1

"Amber Marie Rose, 16, has a fight with her boyfriend at a party. Intoxicated, not wearing a seatbelt, she tears off doing 69 mph in a residential neighborhood, on the wrong side of the road — until she enters the cul-de-sac. She slams into a driveway curb and then into a tree.

Megan Phillips is driving at 71 mph on a rural Wisconsin road. She drifts off road and onto a driveway curb and goes airborne for 59 feet before crashing into a utility box and trees, killing her two unbelted passengers. Interestingly, Phillips blamed herself for the accident, until she heard about the recall. (If a non-running car had caused the accident, wouldn’t she said that from day one?)

Hasayan Chansuthus of Nashville, after drinking with her boyfriend, has a blood alcohol content of .19; driving 70 mph on the Interstate in the rain, she sideswipes a VW, sending her off the freeway into a tree.

Joey Harding, 19, drinking with friends in his mother’s garage, borrows his friend’s Cobalt at 3 in the morning. His blood alcohol content .12, he’s doing 85 in a 45mph zone with predictable results.

Ryan Quigley, 23, leaves a party with friends on a rural New York road in winter weather conditions; sliding down an embankment at 1 a.m., he ends up in the stream below. New York State Police blame the accident on road conditions, excessive speed and alcohol. Infuriated, local police arrest the three people who threw that party for serving alcohol to minors.

Christopher Hamberg, 18, Clearlake, Texas, driving on NASA Parkway at 4:30 in the morning, slams up against the median and rolls the Cobalt. Local police say he was doing only 45 mph, but it’s almost impossible to believe that’s fast enough to roll a car. (The reason I suggested strongly that Congress needs the Black Box data.) No word on alcohol in that case, but we do know he was not wearing a seatbelt.

Kelly Ruddy, 21, enters I-81 at an excessive speed, according to local police, wearing no seatbelt, and simply loses control of the vehicle.

Brooke Melton, 29, hydroplaning on a Georgia road in the rain, loses control of her vehicle.

These are seven of the high-profile media cases resulting in 10 fatalities, and only Brooke Melton was over 25 years old. In case you weren’t counting, at least four, possibly more, involved intoxication.


All seven involved high rates of speed, or unsafe speeds given the road conditions. At least seven weren’t wearing seatbelts, and at least five slammed into cars, medians or driveway curbs. Six happened at night — four verified as being after midnight.

[B]Here’s the point: If all seven of these accidents involved excessive speed, why does anyone think the ignition key had already fallen into the Accessory position — which would have turned the engine off? You can’t drive 69, 70, 71 or 85 mph, or roll your car, with the engine off: It’s got to be running. Which means there’s a reasonable possibility in the majority of these cases that what moved the ignition from Run to Accessory was the extreme physical impact of the accidents."

I do however think you can roll a car at 45MPH with the right, or should I say "wrong" conditions.

And with all the thread moves around here, still wondering why this "doesn't involve Camaros" thread is in the 5th gen Camaro general discussion forum.

[Muscle Car Lover]

Pretty sure if they can make the timing match the "bankrupt" era they will get a pass through on lawsuits.

It's called "moral hazard". While I love the Camaro and am eagerly awaiting mine, GM is a problem company. The US government bailed them out and as it's a centerpiece for the 'economic recovery' I don't think they will be allowed to fail.

Just like the banks. Just like many things.

People get all up in arms about dumb stuff like abortion or gay marriage, but don't bat an eye about the crony capitalism that is stealing the future. The US Federal Reserve is the biggest stealer and killer of freedom there is, and no one even cares.

Sorry, rant OFF.

[Rhyder]

I think there's definitely some over reaction on this but there's also grounds for much of the fining etc going on. I figure when its all said and done and the spin doctors are through, it will be somewhere in the middle. GM was negligent, but not to the degree it appears at this time.


I'm OK with the over reaction though. I'm tired of hearing about car companies doing math and figuring this many recalls will cost x, but if we don't recall this many people might die and the lawsuits if they can prove it will only cost y, so its cheaper to take a chance and not do the recall. Its like the airlines not fixing their planes because the death notes will be less if the plane crashes and maybe the plane wont crash and it wont cost them anything. Or the drug companies putting out drugs they know will kill people over time because they figure they will make 16 billion on it before people start dying and then simply have to stop selling it and pay 8 billion in fines and lawsuits, making 8 billion in profit.I'm disgusted with that mentality.

Bring the hammer down on GM, smash them good, cost them a bundle. Do the same to Ford next week if they have a failure they knew about and knew it could cause deaths and chose not to recall. Crush Pfizer next time they put a drug out that's not fully tested or they knew had side affects that they downplayed or hid. Stop this gambling with lives or the subtraction method they come up with where they decide they will make more money ignoring the problem no matter the potential cost in lives or health.

They need to make these companies pay so much that its actually cheaper to fix the problem before its a problem, so expensive they don't even bother doing the cost vs penalty studies any more.

I know other companies have done it before, but we have to start somewhere and GM is in the barrel at this moment. If it crushes GM into non existence, that's a harsh and troubling thing, but tomorrow you wont see Ford not doing a recall, you wont see Pfizer ignoring the testing data...were not talking about a mistake, or something unforeseen happening....were talking about things the company knew were dangerous and potentially life threatening, and was infinity correctable, and for whatever reason actively choose to hide and ignore......isn't human life and the moral ethical thing to do worth it?

[Austin45]

Originally Posted by MLL67RSSS

Star-Telegram Ed Wallace article:

http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/04...lity.html?rh=1

That is crazy? How can GM be blamed for the majority of those?

[citabria7]

Originally Posted by Muscle Car Lover

Pretty sure if they can make the timing match the "bankrupt" era they will get a pass through on lawsuits.

It's called "moral hazard". While I love the Camaro and am eagerly awaiting mine, GM is a problem company. The US government bailed them out and as it's a centerpiece for the 'economic recovery' I don't think they will be allowed to fail.

Just like the banks. Just like many things.

People get all up in arms about dumb stuff like abortion or gay marriage, but don't bat an eye about the crony capitalism that is stealing the future. The US Federal Reserve is the biggest stealer and killer of freedom there is, and no one even cares.

Sorry, rant OFF.

No, they don't get a pass, but they sure are trying. Fraud and criminal misconduct can't be discharged in BK. They lied in court, they withheld the information during the BK. There are GM people still, today, trying to blame drivers for not being properly thrained in vehicle shut-off driving strategies. I don't recall seeing anything in GM commercials stating that requirement to drive a GM car, or stating that GM ignitions are special, and not to have anything on he keychain. Other cars don't have these problems. There are more injury causing defects in these same recalled cars, that GM is dodging. Identical defects in these cars as in the Escalades. GM extended the warranties on the Escalades, but refuses to do it on the "cheapo" cars. That is per 2 Chevy dealers and, several GM employees who stated that cheap car drivers have no right to expect GM to cover their cars. Same old attitude at GM. Anyone wonder why they went broke?