GM to close 4 factories, may drop Hummer - Page 2

Scotsman · 06-03-2008, 02:05 PM

This is what you call, "thinking ahead", of course this is a little late, but better late than never. The whole automotive landscape here in the U.S will change forever compared to what we know it as now. Trucks and SUV's will become smaller and lighter and built using unit-body construction as oppose to prelethic body on frame construction. I think the Denali XT is a perfect and smart example of the future of the truck; they can manipulate various aspects of the dimensions but you'll still have a utility vehicle in a more efficent and practical package that will cater to those wanting something bigger with the ability to haul stuff to an fro, and relastically how many people actually NEED 4WD???? Not many.... nor do many need the size of today's SUV/Truck. Some people think because they've got a kid or two on the way they need an SUV with three rows of seats that could accomadate multiple twin sets.... ridculous!

As far as performance cars go; there will always be demand. Not everyone wants a mundane means of personal transportation, because a car is exactly that, "personal transportation". Peope want something that expresses thier individuality and performance cars give them that option among a variety of other unique and specialized products. As Dragon said, cars are more adpatable to more stringent fuel economy standards than trucks/SUV's because their size and weight are more managable and easily modified than the ladder. Hopefully many people will still want to buy muscle cars even though going forward they won't be the same today as they were several years ago. Times change, and I know that both the domestics and we that buy them will adapt, sucessfully.

storm79 · 06-03-2008, 05:49 PM

k i do see both sides of your arguments...but yeah I agree with Dragoneye....I also see the only reason the muscle cars would have a problem is the v-8...but if chevy says the camaro could see 30mpg then isn't it meeting CAFE standards and if it gets that more people would buy that becuz it gets good fuel economy and it's got the power to get you where you need to go...but i could see the v-8 being axed and mayb becoming a v-6 or maybe 4 cylinder turbo charged...maybe even v-6 gets a turbocharger idk.....but i think there are way to many trucks and suv's gettin built and not enough cars...like when i go through the car lots in my town there are just trucks EVERYWHERE!!! it's really annoying cuz it's the same trucks and no one really is buying them cuz gas prices are pretty outrageous and it's like really GM why don't you just build some more cars *cough* 2008 cobalt ss *cough* *cough*....but really they do need to start building the ss cobalt turbocharged cuz i cant find one anywhere...id have an easier time finding atlantis......

chadrcr · 06-03-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtahvit

OK, you answered your own question and I don't disagree with your scenario.

But, if gas prices continue to climb and we can't get our precious muscle cars to become more fuel efficient at an equivalent rate, I say they will succumb to the same fate. The consumer will ultimately decide if GM should sell GTO's, CTS-V's, SS/Z28 Camaro's and G8-GXP's or not. My prediction is: If gas prices get to high and the fuel efficiency technology is too expensive, or unable to offset the cost of gas, we will see the same thing that happened in the 70's to a much larger degree. Meaning, V8 muscle cars are next in line on the chopping block. We MAY be on the fringe of having to settle for a SS/Z28 V6 Camaro. I guess this is more about the future of the V8 in sports car than sports cars all together. I concede that point to you. As well as the future of the V6 Camaro is much more secure than that of the V8.

It makes me sick to even think this way.....

the prices did double in the late 70s/early 80s.... but they did not have a 300hp V6 to fall back on.... 130-150 hp Zs and gts ....

chadrcr · 06-03-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotsman

This is what you call, "thinking ahead", of course this is a little late, but better late than never. The whole automotive landscape here in the U.S will change forever compared to what we know it as now. Trucks and SUV's will become smaller and lighter and built using unit-body construction as oppose to prelethic body on frame construction. I think the Denali XT is a perfect and smart example of the future of the truck; they can manipulate various aspects of the dimensions but you'll still have a utility vehicle in a more efficent and practical package that will cater to those wanting something bigger with the ability to haul stuff to an fro, and relastically how many people actually NEED 4WD???? Not many.... nor do many need the size of today's SUV/Truck. Some people think because they've got a kid or two on the way they need an SUV with three rows of seats that could accomadate multiple twin sets.... ridculous! As far as performance cars go; there will always be demand. Not everyone wants a mundane means of personal transportation, because a car is exactly that, "personal transportation". Peope want something that expresses thier individuality and performance cars give them that option among a variety of other unique and specialized products. As Dragon said, cars are more adpatable to more stringent fuel economy standards than trucks/SUV's because their size and weight are more managable and easily modified than the ladder. Hopefully many people will still want to buy muscle cars even though going forward they won't be the same today as they were several years ago. Times change, and I know that both the domestics and we that buy them will adapt, sucessfully.

Some people may want to express their individuality with a 4x4 truck instead of a 430+hp car....... we all have to adapt, no sense attacking 4 wheelers when 'we' hope to have our own "ridiculous" 430 hp.
my full size 4x4 will get 22 mpg and/ or haul a dirtbike and an ATV, while pulling a watercraft. Talk about ridiculous- who needs all that stuff?

NOODLESgoneWILD · 06-03-2008, 08:49 PM

Don't hate on us Hummer owners, When I baught ours gas was still around $2 a gallon...Now it $4 and Higher...We just drive it less, But if you have 4 kids in the house, there VERY useful...and very cool!...So there

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh ya, since Gas prices have gone up....the wife told me to buy a commuter car....so i did a 05 corvette (26 MPG)...so there again!!!!

Scotsman · 06-03-2008, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadrcr

Some people may want to express their individuality with a 4x4 truck instead of a 430+hp car....... we all have to adapt, no sense attacking 4 wheelers when 'we' hope to have our own "ridiculous" 430 hp.
my full size 4x4 will get 22 mpg and/ or haul a dirtbike and an ATV, while pulling a watercraft. Talk about ridiculous- who needs all that stuff?

If you want to take it personally, I didn't make that decision.

*DGthe3* · 06-03-2008, 09:28 PM

The other thing to keep in mind is that I would bet that last year in the US alone GM sold close to
1 000 000 trucks and SUV's, maybe more. How many performance cars did they sell? Include every Corvette, GXP, SS, -V, Redline, and what ever else. I don't think they would crack 100k. Add in Camaro Z28 and SS and its still a drop in the bucket. Plus, most of those cars get 30% better fuel economy than the trucks and SUV's do.

The people who have stoped buying trucks and SUV's are the ones who don't need them in the first place. Anyone who needs such a vehicle, well they need it. An economy car won't tow a trailer, seat 4 kids, and haul all the camping gear needed for a weeked away. A suburban will. You can't put 1000lbs of dirt into the back of a midsized car. But if you wanted it because its big, or looks macho, or something to that effect, they are looking elsewhere.

stovt001 · 06-03-2008, 09:37 PM

I hope for Noodles and the other Hummer fans that it doesn't go under. Sure it is a symbol for inefficiency and excess, but just like our Camaro it appeals to many people with a certain taste who don't mind paying the extra costs. Hopefully GM can innovate their way to making Hummer viable, but I understand their constraints. If they can make it work, they can give Jeep a good run for their money (the H4 is amazing). If they sell it, my first instinct is to call Tata as the buyer, but they do have LR already...

The trucks...well I feel bad for all the workers who lost their jobs, but I have to agree with GM - the shift is structural. Even if gas prices go down, trucks aren't fashionable anymore, so all the people who really didn't need them will move on to something else. The good news for the people who still want one is you can get it for a steal.

The good news is GM's small car plans seem pretty darn promising. Investors seem to agree too - stock price was still up despite horrible sales numbers later in the day. All in all, except for the truck workers it was a good day in GM land.

Scotsman · 06-03-2008, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stovt001

all the people who really didn't need them will move on to something else. The good news for the people who still want one is you can get it for a steal.

This is my whole point. The majority of people that own pickups and SUV's DON'T need them, they buy them because they like the look, they think they're safe, or they just like riding high (ridiculous). Now people are faced with making more financially responsible decisions.

chadrcr · 06-03-2008, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotsman

If you want to take it personally, I didn't make that decision.

The majority of people who have the internet do not NEED it, and its price has gone up a lot...... are 'we' ridiculous too?

Or just people who may want something different than 'us'...they are all ridiculous?

My point, scotsman, was: calling people ridiculous....

unnecessary. the size of the excursion...THAT is ridiculous...

Anyway...
I think it is funny that trucks kept getting bigger and bigger...especially the toyota/nissan.
A lot of people could get by with smaller trucks, or .... no truck at all. I would like to have the option, to buy
a small or medium size truck, that could tow what I need to tow. But the smaller trucks can not compete with my 5.3 for towing, and do not get much (if any) better mpg.

Sierra · 06-03-2008, 10:29 PM

I must say this is the one time GM may be first in line with their hands on the pulse of the buyers. If you saw them last year at the any carshow. It was all about hybrids, going green and efficiency. Yes small cars. But they trucks were hybrids also. The market is cyclical. It will swing back to where people buy trucks again. I have my Sierra and I love it. Yes I have a 5.3 V8 in it. and I love every ounce of power it gives me.

Scotsman · 06-03-2008, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sierra

The market is cyclical. It will swing back to where people buy trucks again. I have my Sierra and I love it. Yes I have a 5.3 V8 in it. and I love every ounce of power it gives me.

In this instance that's not the case. Fuel prices will not go back down to where they once were and the worlds oil supply (most seem to agree) is depleting, not growing. Therefore we will have to drive more fuel efficient vehicles, vehicles that will get fuel economy numbers where the price of gas won't effect buyers as much as they are now driving less fuel efficient vehicles like trucks and SUV's. This is NOT a trend that will reverse.

chadrcr · 06-03-2008, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sierra

I must say this is the one time GM may be first in line with their hands on the pulse of the buyers. If you saw them last year at the any carshow. It was all about hybrids, going green and efficiency. Yes small cars. But they trucks were hybrids also. The market is cyclical. It will swing back to where people buy trucks again. I have my Sierra and I love it. Yes I have a 5.3 V8 in it. and I love every ounce of power it gives me.

Cyclical, that word looks funny when I spell it. But that is what the market is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotsman

In this instance that's not the case. Fuel prices will not go back down to where they once were and the worlds oil supply (most seem to agree) is depleting, not growing. Therefore we will have to drive more fuel efficient vehicles, vehicles that will get fuel economy numbers where the price of gas won't effect buyers as much as they are now driving less fuel efficient vehicles like trucks and SUV's. This is NOT a trend that will reverse.

All of those same things were said in the early 70s, then again in the late
70's and early 80's. (Gas prices doubled back then too- from .70 up to 1.40) and there was rationing (only certain # license plates could get gas that day) and loooooong lines at the pumps......Oil supply is probably not growing, but now we have hybrids, electric (Volt) and 300 hp V6s.

oh, that might not help...
Oh yea, gas did go back down below $1 afterwards and stayed for almost 20 years near $1.
We will adapt new tech, and smaller cars though.

Scotsman · 06-03-2008, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadrcr

All of those same things were said in the early 70s, then again in the late
70's and early 80's.

Yeah, you had billions of more drivers in emerging markets coming on board using up more of the worlds gas supply that's already short.

06-03-2008, 02:05 PM	#15
Scotsman Auto Pilot Drives: Gunmetal Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: L.A. Posts: 1,307	This is what you call, "thinking ahead", of course this is a little late, but better late than never. The whole automotive landscape here in the U.S will change forever compared to what we know it as now. Trucks and SUV's will become smaller and lighter and built using unit-body construction as oppose to prelethic body on frame construction. I think the Denali XT is a perfect and smart example of the future of the truck; they can manipulate various aspects of the dimensions but you'll still have a utility vehicle in a more efficent and practical package that will cater to those wanting something bigger with the ability to haul stuff to an fro, and relastically how many people actually NEED 4WD???? Not many.... nor do many need the size of today's SUV/Truck. Some people think because they've got a kid or two on the way they need an SUV with three rows of seats that could accomadate multiple twin sets.... ridculous! As far as performance cars go; there will always be demand. Not everyone wants a mundane means of personal transportation, because a car is exactly that, "personal transportation". Peope want something that expresses thier individuality and performance cars give them that option among a variety of other unique and specialized products. As Dragon said, cars are more adpatable to more stringent fuel economy standards than trucks/SUV's because their size and weight are more managable and easily modified than the ladder. Hopefully many people will still want to buy muscle cars even though going forward they won't be the same today as they were several years ago. Times change, and I know that both the domestics and we that buy them will adapt, sucessfully. __________________ "Let the rest of the world dream of Ferraris, Lamborghinis and dinky little British two-seaters. In this country speed doesn't look like that." Got SS?

06-03-2008, 05:49 PM	#16
storm79 Drives: 2007 GMC Sierra Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Middle of nowhere Posts: 281	k i do see both sides of your arguments...but yeah I agree with Dragoneye....I also see the only reason the muscle cars would have a problem is the v-8...but if chevy says the camaro could see 30mpg then isn't it meeting CAFE standards and if it gets that more people would buy that becuz it gets good fuel economy and it's got the power to get you where you need to go...but i could see the v-8 being axed and mayb becoming a v-6 or maybe 4 cylinder turbo charged...maybe even v-6 gets a turbocharger idk.....but i think there are way to many trucks and suv's gettin built and not enough cars...like when i go through the car lots in my town there are just trucks EVERYWHERE!!! it's really annoying cuz it's the same trucks and no one really is buying them cuz gas prices are pretty outrageous and it's like really GM why don't you just build some more cars cough 2008 cobalt ss cough cough....but really they do need to start building the ss cobalt turbocharged cuz i cant find one anywhere...id have an easier time finding atlantis...... __________________

06-03-2008, 09:28 PM	#21
DGthe3 Moderator.ca Drives: 05 Grand Am GT Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Niagara, Canada Posts: 25,366	The other thing to keep in mind is that I would bet that last year in the US alone GM sold close to 1 000 000 trucks and SUV's, maybe more. How many performance cars did they sell? Include every Corvette, GXP, SS, -V, Redline, and what ever else. I don't think they would crack 100k. Add in Camaro Z28 and SS and its still a drop in the bucket. Plus, most of those cars get 30% better fuel economy than the trucks and SUV's do. The people who have stoped buying trucks and SUV's are the ones who don't need them in the first place. Anyone who needs such a vehicle, well they need it. An economy car won't tow a trailer, seat 4 kids, and haul all the camping gear needed for a weeked away. A suburban will. You can't put 1000lbs of dirt into the back of a midsized car. But if you wanted it because its big, or looks macho, or something to that effect, they are looking elsewhere. __________________ Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them __________________ Originally Posted by FbodFather My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors...... ........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!! __________________ Camaro Fest sub-forum

06-03-2008, 08:49 PM	#19
NOODLESgoneWILD IS IT 2009 YET??? Drives: '05 Z51 Black Vette & '06 H2 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Mill Creek, Washington Posts: 408	Don't hate on us Hummer owners, When I baught ours gas was still around $2 a gallon...Now it $4 and Higher...We just drive it less, But if you have 4 kids in the house, there VERY useful...and very cool!...So there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh ya, since Gas prices have gone up....the wife told me to buy a commuter car....so i did a 05 corvette (26 MPG)...so there again!!!!

06-03-2008, 09:37 PM	#22
stovt001 Drives: 2006 Cobalt, 2004 Taurus wagon Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: California Posts: 3,810	I hope for Noodles and the other Hummer fans that it doesn't go under. Sure it is a symbol for inefficiency and excess, but just like our Camaro it appeals to many people with a certain taste who don't mind paying the extra costs. Hopefully GM can innovate their way to making Hummer viable, but I understand their constraints. If they can make it work, they can give Jeep a good run for their money (the H4 is amazing). If they sell it, my first instinct is to call Tata as the buyer, but they do have LR already... The trucks...well I feel bad for all the workers who lost their jobs, but I have to agree with GM - the shift is structural. Even if gas prices go down, trucks aren't fashionable anymore, so all the people who really didn't need them will move on to something else. The good news for the people who still want one is you can get it for a steal. The good news is GM's small car plans seem pretty darn promising. Investors seem to agree too - stock price was still up despite horrible sales numbers later in the day. All in all, except for the truck workers it was a good day in GM land.

06-03-2008, 10:29 PM	#25
Sierra Drives: 2004 GMC Sierra SLT 4x4 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 1,045	I must say this is the one time GM may be first in line with their hands on the pulse of the buyers. If you saw them last year at the any carshow. It was all about hybrids, going green and efficiency. Yes small cars. But they trucks were hybrids also. The market is cyclical. It will swing back to where people buy trucks again. I have my Sierra and I love it. Yes I have a 5.3 V8 in it. and I love every ounce of power it gives me.