Car Performance - For Real People

[snaphappy]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

So you are saying that GM should build a Camaro for the masses (you also say they should do it for the Corvette ... but lets stick to one car for the moment) with all the great looks, has some get up & go, but without all the expensive high performance hardware.

You do understand that GM offers a V6 Camaro for under 25 grand, right? Looks great, offers decent (but not outstanding) performance, has pretty decent fuel economy, and costs thousands less than the average new car. That is the Camaro for the masses.

Also, I haven't read too many reviews where the Camaro was knocked because of its lack of performance. Often they were impressed by how well it did, and then complained about the lack of visibility, the steering wheel, the plastics in the interior, the poor erogonomics, etc.

I think everything about the Camaro is pretty good right now. I'm worried the next Camaro is going to be quite a bit more expensive. Like I said, it will be worth it, because it's going to perform so incredibly well, but I don't want the bar for entry to be too high.

That's the story of the current Vette, imo. It starts at $55,000? I think it should start at $43,000-$47,000. $41,000 would be great. Give me a lesser engine, lesser wheels/tires, less gadgets, no carbon fiber etc, just give me the look. But if they want to make them a less obtainable borderline super car, oh well. I'll just admire them from afar.

I'm also worried that the next Camaro will be smaller and lighter strictly for the sake of track performance. Now GM has shown that they can achieve great track performance with a big car with the Z/28. So hopefully the new Camaro will stay big. But I don't want the look of the Camaro to suffer for the sake of the track. But hey that wasn't an issue with the C7, it's beautiful.

Finally, and this is my biggest complaint, I'm sick of car reviews bad mouthing cars that don't perform well on the track. Makes me mad mad mad. The performance of the SS is mind boggling, especially for the price. This is a great car. Sure it stinks on the track without mods (1LE if you don't want to mod yourself) but who cares??? Countach bad visibility - amazing car. Countach poor track performer - still crazy fast. They must stop using the track as the only measurement for what a good performance car is. With that way of thinking, every classic car, including the very fast ones, are all rubbish. And they're the most fun cars to drive money can buy, ya know?

[trashmanssd]

Whats wrong with a car just being a boulevard cruising muscle car. Maybe even V8 GT car hell i can't think of many affordable GT cars, Camaro, Challenger, Mustang?(not all that much luxury in mustang), then price goes up up up Audi RS5, Mercedes CLK55, Jaguar F-type, Mercedes SL550, Aston Martin Vantage, Bentley Continental.

[derklug]

The automotive press has to have some way to compare cars, and the track is a good place for solid numbers. Once they are done, however, there should be the average Joe driver's experience. My car with it's silly log axle and bloated overweight body, is still more capable than I am. Most of the cars ranked highest by the press, are also a PITA to live with on a day to day basis. A C-7, while snubbed by the automotive press when compared to the Porsches, Mercedes, Jags, and BMW's, will be a much more livable car for the average owner. The maintenance prices on the high end European cars is a killer, and the overall long term quality is no better than GM's. But they are 1 sec faster around some track where they will never be seen other than on Media day.

[thkfast]

Originally Posted by snaphappy

Could you see GM offering a dragstrip package? Similar to the 1LE track package? But this one specifically for the strip. I think that would rock.

COPO Camaro brother! Limited production and expensive as hell.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by snaphappy

I think everything about the Camaro is pretty good right now. I'm worried the next Camaro is going to be quite a bit more expensive. Like I said, it will be worth it, because it's going to perform so incredibly well, but I don't want the bar for entry to be too high.

That's the story of the current Vette, imo. It starts at $55,000? I think it should start at $43,000-$47,000. $41,000 would be great. Give me a lesser engine, lesser wheels/tires, less gadgets, no carbon fiber etc, just give me the look. But if they want to make them a less obtainable borderline super car, oh well. I'll just admire them from afar.

I'm also worried that the next Camaro will be smaller and lighter strictly for the sake of track performance. Now GM has shown that they can achieve great track performance with a big car with the Z/28. So hopefully the new Camaro will stay big. But I don't want the look of the Camaro to suffer for the sake of the track. But hey that wasn't an issue with the C7, it's beautiful.

Finally, and this is my biggest complaint, I'm sick of car reviews bad mouthing cars that don't perform well on the track. Makes me mad mad mad. The performance of the SS is mind boggling, especially for the price. This is a great car. Sure it stinks on the track without mods (1LE if you don't want to mod yourself) but who cares??? Countach bad visibility - amazing car. Countach poor track performer - still crazy fast. They must stop using the track as the only measurement for what a good performance car is. With that way of thinking, every classic car, including the very fast ones, are all rubbish. And they're the most fun cars to drive money can buy, ya know?

GM set themselves up by calling the Camaro a "sports car". Many on this site get upset if you were to tell them it really isn't that it is a "sporty car".

When you tell the world it's a sports car you get sports car comparisons.

I think what you want is for them to bring back the Berlinetta with the V8 as an option.

[snaphappy]

I might make a new thread abut this, I was just watching After/Drive and these guys said something like this:

You take one of these new cars to the strip with launch control and a dual-cluth and you're going to launch better than everyone there and shift faster than guys who've been practicing for years. That's why the track is a lot more interesting. You can use the new technology in these cars to your advantage, BUT, the tech isn't going to make you a pro all on its own. You still need to have driving skill.

So with that paraphrase in mind, I just want to say that I finally understand why auto journalists emphasize track performance, and downplay 0-60 and 1/4 mile. In their estimation, the technology in the cars allows for near perfect 1/4 mile - so who cares anymore? It's not a challenge anymore, in their opinion. And as a consequence, just about anything can go 0-60 in 4.5, just about anything can do the 1/4 mile under 13, you even see a lot of 12.5's and 12's. So the track remains as the one place where tech doesn't reign supreme. It dramatically helps, but there's still a lot you have to do on your own as a driver.

Now for me, in my opinion, this is exactly why I hate nannies. This is why I think about getting a 69 Camaro I want to control it all. It's my machine, I want to be the master of it. Even if that means I suck. Whatever I achieve with the car - I want it to be because of me. I just like that idea.

[trademaster]

There is a simple solution for this. . . go to the track more.

[MikeSVX]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

I've been ranting about this for years. While I disagree about the track performance—considering price point, the Camaro and Corvette both beat cars they have no right to touch—I agree that performance cars are getting unattainable at General Motors. There is nothing below Camaro, and a whole lot above it, including Corvette and CTS-V. The GM lineup lacks entry level performance that competing companies offer. It would be nice to have cheap RWD coupes, but I'd gladly take a Cruze or Sonic with an SS badge.

I believe the Sonic has an RS version. It comes with the 1.4L Turbo engine. I don't think they did anything to the engine preformance wise, but I believe they rework the suspension on it.

[MikeSVX]

Originally Posted by snaphappy

That's the story of the current Vette, imo. It starts at $55,000? I think it should start at $43,000-$47,000. $41,000 would be great.

I had to search those prices. This is what I'm finding:
2014: The Base price starts at $51,000
2013: The Base Price started at $49,600.

There is only a $1400 price increase from the old out going C6 and the new and heavily inproved C7. I'm not seeing an issue.

Granted, I can afford a $50K car. Hell, I was barely able to afford my $30,600 2010 1SS when I got it. There are options out there. You just have to realize that you get what you pay for. what you want may not be what you can afford. To be honest with you, at this point, the perfect car for me to purchase would be a CTS-V wagon. My wife needs a car that can haul her business supplies and wants the preformance of my Camaro, but all the bells and whisles on the inside. Most likely what she will end up in is a Subaru Outback. They have the space she needs and all the interior options she wants, but can be had for less then $30K. She will have to live with out the preformance. She understands she has to give up something and she would prefer to give up that over the rest.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by snaphappy

Oh man, I re-read what I posted, and I sound kind of like a douche. It sounds like I'm trashing the C7 and Z/28. I really appreciate what GM has achieved. As far as I can tell, GM has blown everyone away with the C7. Even their harshest critics. And I love watching YouTube reviews and cheering on their advancements.

And hey, maybe when a used C7 is available for $39k I'll switch.

But I think there's a big market for us normal guys who don't need all that racing awesomeness. The best selling C7 would have less tech, lesser performance, and start at $41k. It would still be a bit faster than the SS, not as fast as the ZL1, but it would look just like any other C7. That's my opinion.

Even $39k is a lot of money. Put yourself in the shoes of a newly successful college graduate who has gotten their first "real" job. They're going to be paying college loans for the foreseeable future, and they might still be driving the car they had when they were 16 years old. I'd say that hard worker deserves a moderate sports car. This is what GM is missing. GM needs a car slated below $30k that people can afford to buy before reaching 25 years of age. Of course, import automakers are the only ones taking that segment seriously, offering products like the Impreza, BRZ/FR-S, tC, Civic, and other assorted imports with various sport trims.

[trashmanssd]

Ford has Fiest ST and Focus ST both look average to me but they are very fast little hot hatches focus would be my choice is i had to get one of them. But if i were to pick under 30K sports car Subaru BRZ Limited.

[snaphappy]

Originally Posted by MikeSVX

There is only a $1400 price increase from the old out going C6 and the new and heavily inproved C7. I'm not seeing an issue.

I didn't know that. Good to know. I still wish there was a dumbed down Vette for like $43,000

[snaphappy]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

This is what GM is missing. GM needs a car slated below $30k that people can afford to buy before reaching 25 years of age.

I agree.You CAN get a decent V6 Camaro, which is no slouch with 300hp. Could definitely be a lot of fun with an M6.

But I agree, the world needs a really solid sports car for $26,900 or something like that.

I'm really arguing for cars that look outstanding, but don't offer the performance that we're seeing in cars today. Camaro and Mustang do a nice job of this by offering 6 cylinders etc. But we need more of this, imo.

Again, the Vette is a performance bargain, but what about those of use who just don't need that much performance?

[snaphappy]

Originally Posted by trademaster

There is a simple solution for this. . . go to the track more.

I'm going to investigate this at some point. Watching all these track videos piques my curiosity!