13-year-old with pellet gun shot 7 times... - Page 3

blake-b · 10-25-2013, 03:07 PM

If you have ever been in a shooting you would understand why 7 shots were fired. In my incident I fired 8 and my partner fired 6. According to the video we fired the 14 rounds between us in a little over a second although it seemed forever as time seemed to stand still.

We do not fire warning shots and train to shoot center mass because it is the largest target. It just so happens many vital organs are in the center mass. We shoot to stop the threat. Shooting for less lethal areas is reserved for less lethal such as bean bag rounds and not regular rounds.

WarMachineZL1 · 10-25-2013, 03:07 PM

Warning shots are only in the movies. If an officer fires, it is meant to eliminate a threat. In the real world a warning shot will just get you hurt. If you, as an officer, perceive a lethal threat you shoot to kill!!

RBL · 10-25-2013, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gtkilrss

Only thing I see that I see a red flag is the 8 shots fired and 7 hits. Why so many shots fired?

Get in your first shot out and you will understand why. The magazine will be empty before you even know what the hell is going on, its a crazy situation and it is not an emotion that tranining can really prepare you for.

Diode Dynamics · 10-25-2013, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blake-b

If you have ever been in a shooting you would understand why 7 shots were fired. In my incident I fired 8 and my partner fired 6. According to the video we fired the 14 rounds between us in a little over a second although it seemed forever as time seemed to stand still.

We do not fire warning shots and train to shoot center mass because it is the largest target. It just so happens many vital organs are in the center mass. We shoot to stop the threat. Shooting for less lethal areas is reserved for less lethal such as bean bag rounds and not regular rounds.

Thank you for providing more insight into that for me. I can certainly understand both sides in this situation. It's too bad they didn't have rubber bullets or some other non-lethal solution...

I can only imagine how slow time must seem in those type of situations

Nick C.

LIM3 · 10-25-2013, 03:26 PM

7 shots is excessive.
The kid was wrong for being dressed like that and yielding a weapon that resembles the real thing.

Leo_black · 10-25-2013, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIM3

Probably the only one that thinks this but shouldn't have the officers fired either a warning or a none fatal body shot ?

What would have happened if one of the officers fired a warning show, flew past the kid and hit some lady in a house, or shot at the ground, the bullet ricocheted up and his someone still? Anyone who trains with a gun is usually trained not to pull the trigger until you've decided you want to kill whatever it is you're pointing at.

In this situation, I'm with the cops. Give a kid a toy gun, he takes it out in public (with a toy pistol in his waistband, which the cops didn't see until after he was shot but obviously the kid was pretending to be a gangster) he's just asking for trouble. Quite frankly, if he came up on me like that I probably would've shot him too.

WarMachineZL1 · 10-25-2013, 03:41 PM

What are you basing your opinion of 7 shots being excessive? A modern handgun with an experienced user can fire 6-7 rounds per second. Given human reaction times and depending on the type of weapon used, there may have been no indication that the kid was hit or falling. It's not like in the movies, a person will not go flying backwards when shot. Especially if they were using high velocity rounds like a 9MM, those bullets pass through the body and it can take half a second or more for the person to even realize they have been shot.

blake-b · 10-25-2013, 03:53 PM

We are responsible for every round that comes out of our weapon. IF we were allowed to fire a warning shot and it does damage to property or hurts/kills someone we are responsible. In fact here in KC, 2-3 years ago, a girl was killed by a bullet fired from some distance away during a New Year's Eve get together which included "celebratory" gunfire. It can and does happen.

In reality, during my shooting, the reason I fired 8 was because my gun malfunctioned (actually self induced due to the slide locking lever being the bigger version offered on the G35 model which I promptly replaced with the thinner one when I got my pistol back). There is no definitive minimum or maximum amount of rounds to fire but you might be questioned why if the amount seems out of place. It was noticed in actual shootings some of our officers were firing two rounds and stepping left or right and pausing. Guess what? That is exactly how we do our qualifications. The range staff noticed this and change the qual up every so often so nothing gets ingrained. Kinda like the CHP incident where they found empty casings in the dead officers pockets... they had it ingrained to pick up their brass after shooting.

Bottom line is don't judge if you weren't there. I have been in a similar situation but I still try not to judge because it is just Monday morning quarterbacking. Officers are judged on what they knew at the time of the incident, not what was learned afterwards. I am just trying to paint a more objective viewpoint for some as they may not realize what all goes on, etc during a situation like this.

On a related note, what if someone painted the end of a real AK47 or AR15 blaze orange to try to disguise it as an airsoft weapon? Have any of you seen the super soaker that had a real shotgun inside and would fire? Don't point things at people with real guns if you aren't prepared to deal with the consequences.

This is a horrible tragedy and I, too, think the parents (or whoever let him take the thing out of the house or lack of supervision that allowed it) are at least partially to blame. I have seen 10 year old kids stuffing toy guns down the front of their pants in the inner city. That is learned behavior from somewhere. I have had people point their hands at me like a gun and act like they are pulling a trigger. Once again, learned behavior.

Someone earlier in the thread said the best course of action is to comply and then deal with the treatment later. That is the best advice. Police are reactionary, we don't drive around shooting people at will. We react to their actions. If people would comply, incidents like this would be reduced.

Another thing just occurred to me as I sit here typing, a few years ago there was a shootout between an officer and a bank robbery suspect. The suspect was hit something like 17 times with a .45 ACP before he went down. He wasn't high or drunk or wearing body armor, just determined. The last two rounds, if I recall correctly, were headshots (shot placement is more important than caliber) that stopped him. So again, saying how many shots it should take is not plausible in situations like these.

FenwickHockey65 · 10-25-2013, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIM3

7 shots is excessive.
The kid was wrong for being dressed like that and yielding a weapon that resembles the real thing.

It might seem like overkill, but like I said earlier, in that kind of situation your mind is in a different gear. When someone aims what you believe is a real, loaded AK-47 at your head, you'd probably empty your magazine into him as well.

upflying · 10-25-2013, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIM3

Probably the only one that thinks this but shouldn't have the officers fired either a warning or a none fatal body shot ?

Warning shots are against department policy everywhere in California.
LEO's are trained to shoot at center mass because you are less likely to miss. Shooting at a leg is only in the movies.
LEO's are trained to stop the threat and you fire until the threat stops. That means 8 shots in the mind of this LEO.
If you are close enough, LEO's are also trained in the "failure drill" to stop a threat. Failure drill is three shots, two to center mass and one to the head.

LIM3 · 10-25-2013, 04:52 PM

Guys guys I was giving my opinion..

jewel25 · 10-25-2013, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIM3

Guys guys I was giving my opinion..

appartently is is the wrong one. Just kinding.

I was worried this thread was going to get shut down fast but I am glad people are discussing the topic like adults.

Diode Dynamics · 10-25-2013, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blake-b

We are responsible for every round that comes out of our weapon. IF we were allowed to fire a warning shot and it does damage to property or hurts/kills someone we are responsible. In fact here in KC, 2-3 years ago, a girl was killed by a bullet fired from some distance away during a New Year's Eve get together which included "celebratory" gunfire. It can and does happen.

In reality, during my shooting, the reason I fired 8 was because my gun malfunctioned (actually self induced due to the slide locking lever being the bigger version offered on the G35 model which I promptly replaced with the thinner one when I got my pistol back). There is no definitive minimum or maximum amount of rounds to fire but you might be questioned why if the amount seems out of place. It was noticed in actual shootings some of our officers were firing two rounds and stepping left or right and pausing. Guess what? That is exactly how we do our qualifications. The range staff noticed this and change the qual up every so often so nothing gets ingrained. Kinda like the CHP incident where they found empty casings in the dead officers pockets... they had it ingrained to pick up their brass after shooting.

Bottom line is don't judge if you weren't there. I have been in a similar situation but I still try not to judge because it is just Monday morning quarterbacking. Officers are judged on what they knew at the time of the incident, not what was learned afterwards. I am just trying to paint a more objective viewpoint for some as they may not realize what all goes on, etc during a situation like this.

On a related note, what if someone painted the end of a real AK47 or AR15 blaze orange to try to disguise it as an airsoft weapon? Have any of you seen the super soaker that had a real shotgun inside and would fire? Don't point things at people with real guns if you aren't prepared to deal with the consequences.

This is a horrible tragedy and I, too, think the parents (or whoever let him take the thing out of the house or lack of supervision that allowed it) are at least partially to blame. I have seen 10 year old kids stuffing toy guns down the front of their pants in the inner city. That is learned behavior from somewhere. I have had people point their hands at me like a gun and act like they are pulling a trigger. Once again, learned behavior.

Someone earlier in the thread said the best course of action is to comply and then deal with the treatment later. That is the best advice. Police are reactionary, we don't drive around shooting people at will. We react to their actions. If people would comply, incidents like this would be reduced.

Another thing just occurred to me as I sit here typing, a few years ago there was a shootout between an officer and a bank robbery suspect. The suspect was hit something like 17 times with a .45 ACP before he went down. He wasn't high or drunk or wearing body armor, just determined. The last two rounds, if I recall correctly, were headshots (shot placement is more important than caliber) that stopped him. So again, saying how many shots it should take is not plausible in situations like these.

I remember hearing that story on the news. I just moved to STL from KC.

I miss my city!

Nick C.

Silverlsinva · 10-25-2013, 05:49 PM

Wow that sucks why would anyone be strolling along in a hoodie and a look alike AK 47 is beyond me that is what most terrorist use/rebels, I don't see where 8 shots fired and 7 hits is a excessive for some people a real Ak has a 7.62 round which will I think go through most body armor that cops wear on a daily basis and a AK fires what 600 700 rds per min? I think all blame is on the Teenager, he didn't listen to the cops unless they told him to turn around without dropping the weapon first which I doubt is what happened. Sometimes the parents don't know what their kids own and have so I cant put the blame on them till they say they gave it too him.

10-25-2013, 03:26 PM	#33
LIM3 it's mind bottling.. Drives: SGM Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: miami floirda. Posts: 5,392	7 shots is excessive. The kid was wrong for being dressed like that and yielding a weapon that resembles the real thing. __________________

10-25-2013, 04:52 PM	#39
LIM3 it's mind bottling.. Drives: SGM Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: miami floirda. Posts: 5,392	Guys guys I was giving my opinion.. __________________

10-25-2013, 03:07 PM	#29
blake-b Drives: 2009 ZR1 Join Date: May 2010 Location: KCMO Posts: 3,205	If you have ever been in a shooting you would understand why 7 shots were fired. In my incident I fired 8 and my partner fired 6. According to the video we fired the 14 rounds between us in a little over a second although it seemed forever as time seemed to stand still. We do not fire warning shots and train to shoot center mass because it is the largest target. It just so happens many vital organs are in the center mass. We shoot to stop the threat. Shooting for less lethal areas is reserved for less lethal such as bean bag rounds and not regular rounds.

10-25-2013, 03:07 PM	#30
WarMachineZL1 War Machine Drives: 2012 Ashen Grey ZL1 #00012 Join Date: May 2013 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 48	Warning shots are only in the movies. If an officer fires, it is meant to eliminate a threat. In the real world a warning shot will just get you hurt. If you, as an officer, perceive a lethal threat you shoot to kill!!

10-25-2013, 03:41 PM	#35
WarMachineZL1 War Machine Drives: 2012 Ashen Grey ZL1 #00012 Join Date: May 2013 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 48	What are you basing your opinion of 7 shots being excessive? A modern handgun with an experienced user can fire 6-7 rounds per second. Given human reaction times and depending on the type of weapon used, there may have been no indication that the kid was hit or falling. It's not like in the movies, a person will not go flying backwards when shot. Especially if they were using high velocity rounds like a 9MM, those bullets pass through the body and it can take half a second or more for the person to even realize they have been shot.

10-25-2013, 03:53 PM	#36
blake-b Drives: 2009 ZR1 Join Date: May 2010 Location: KCMO Posts: 3,205	We are responsible for every round that comes out of our weapon. IF we were allowed to fire a warning shot and it does damage to property or hurts/kills someone we are responsible. In fact here in KC, 2-3 years ago, a girl was killed by a bullet fired from some distance away during a New Year's Eve get together which included "celebratory" gunfire. It can and does happen. In reality, during my shooting, the reason I fired 8 was because my gun malfunctioned (actually self induced due to the slide locking lever being the bigger version offered on the G35 model which I promptly replaced with the thinner one when I got my pistol back). There is no definitive minimum or maximum amount of rounds to fire but you might be questioned why if the amount seems out of place. It was noticed in actual shootings some of our officers were firing two rounds and stepping left or right and pausing. Guess what? That is exactly how we do our qualifications. The range staff noticed this and change the qual up every so often so nothing gets ingrained. Kinda like the CHP incident where they found empty casings in the dead officers pockets... they had it ingrained to pick up their brass after shooting. Bottom line is don't judge if you weren't there. I have been in a similar situation but I still try not to judge because it is just Monday morning quarterbacking. Officers are judged on what they knew at the time of the incident, not what was learned afterwards. I am just trying to paint a more objective viewpoint for some as they may not realize what all goes on, etc during a situation like this. On a related note, what if someone painted the end of a real AK47 or AR15 blaze orange to try to disguise it as an airsoft weapon? Have any of you seen the super soaker that had a real shotgun inside and would fire? Don't point things at people with real guns if you aren't prepared to deal with the consequences. This is a horrible tragedy and I, too, think the parents (or whoever let him take the thing out of the house or lack of supervision that allowed it) are at least partially to blame. I have seen 10 year old kids stuffing toy guns down the front of their pants in the inner city. That is learned behavior from somewhere. I have had people point their hands at me like a gun and act like they are pulling a trigger. Once again, learned behavior. Someone earlier in the thread said the best course of action is to comply and then deal with the treatment later. That is the best advice. Police are reactionary, we don't drive around shooting people at will. We react to their actions. If people would comply, incidents like this would be reduced. Another thing just occurred to me as I sit here typing, a few years ago there was a shootout between an officer and a bank robbery suspect. The suspect was hit something like 17 times with a .45 ACP before he went down. He wasn't high or drunk or wearing body armor, just determined. The last two rounds, if I recall correctly, were headshots (shot placement is more important than caliber) that stopped him. So again, saying how many shots it should take is not plausible in situations like these.

10-25-2013, 05:49 PM	#42
Silverlsinva Drives: 2013 Fiat 500 Abarth Grigio Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Manassas, Va Posts: 3,124	Wow that sucks why would anyone be strolling along in a hoodie and a look alike AK 47 is beyond me that is what most terrorist use/rebels, I don't see where 8 shots fired and 7 hits is a excessive for some people a real Ak has a 7.62 round which will I think go through most body armor that cops wear on a daily basis and a AK fires what 600 700 rds per min? I think all blame is on the Teenager, he didn't listen to the cops unless they told him to turn around without dropping the weapon first which I doubt is what happened. Sometimes the parents don't know what their kids own and have so I cant put the blame on them till they say they gave it too him.