GM suspends big-truck orders

[Kyle2k]

I think the people on top that can take the hits should. I have a buddy with a retired fisherman from Alaska as a stepfather. He has 3 condos in Miami, and a house in Alaska- and whats the point why does he need 3 condos when some people can't even afford a small piddly house. I agree that low paying jobs are better than no jobs, but you have to realize that the workers aren't in the best wishes of the CEO if they are striking and hes getting a large percentage in bonuses. As for the destruction of the domestic auto industry- it seems like the CEO's are doing that to their own companies if they won't help the people that are doing the work for them just because they wont be able to get enough for that next new house or plane.

I don't know how you can tie the failure of business and blame it on the workers when the 1 CEO is making more than 50% of the rest of the company. Please, please don't take this offensively but I mean its simple math x > y and that isnt fair when it is only 1 person making the x and 70 people or more are the y

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by stovt001

What is better for the workers? A pay more in line with what everyone else is getting even if your CEO makes more, or no job at all and the destruction of the domestic auto industry, ending jobs for thousands of people? If the conditions are so horrible for the UAW members why don't they just go work for any of the foreign brands or their parts suppliers?

Ultimate to you, allright? Keep that in mind, cause none of this is meant to be personal......


Don't be so niave to think it's that simple. The Union is in place to protect against crap like that. It's not there to walk away, or just "settle" for poor pay and conditions: That's why they were created, so people would have more choices than to just 'settle". Believe me: I understand that foriegn competition is making it tough for our companies to compete, but that is no excuse to allow a regress in pay and conditions to their (competition's) level. Foriegn workers have a lower standard of living!! Why do you think they can work for so cheap??

But add to that poor management, and terrible financial responsibility, American Axle is in trouble. But - instead of trying to solve a problem, and talk to seek results...they say "50% pay cut for our workers." while they're signing a bonus check to themselves.

A little background: American Axle wants to shut down two plants in my area as part of their restructuring. I'm not happy, because although I can see the reasoning behind the move: I can't see why it should come to that. GM, and Ford have managed to keep jobs in the US, so can American Axle.

[stovt001]

No one is putting a gun to the workers heads forcing them to work for less pay while management gets more pay. If they don't like it, then they should go work for one of those companies that care only about paying employees whatever they want. Oh wait...

Most workers in this country do just fine without Unions. Your company is cutting your pay and you don't like it? Then leave. If my pay was cut significantly enough to overcome all the other advantages of working for the company that employs me, I'd leave.

The unions need to pick their battles. In this instance, they have absolutely nothing going in their favor. They make products for vehicles GM is facing little demand for, in an overall market that is at its weakest point in the cycle, and a buyer's labor market. American Axle apparently has pretty good capacity abroad to shift operations. Made short: GM has declining need for AA's products, and AA has declining need for UAW employees. Instead of striking to demand wages far above their market value, maybe its time they start looking at more promising labor markets.

Now if the situation was different, then the union action could make perfect sense. If demand for the product was increasing, their wages were below the market rate, and the availability of non-UAW labor was low, then I'd say the union would not be working in their employees favor if they didn't strike.

As I said, its all about picking your battles and knowing the economics of the situation. With increasing globalization the unions and their workers need to realize that manufacturing is not America's competitive strength. Our strengths are services (especially location specific) and ownership. Entering one of those fields is the only logical decision. Stubbornly clinging to manufacturing when other countries can do it better is all but suicide.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by stovt001

No one is putting a gun to the workers heads forcing them to work for less pay while management gets more pay. If they don't like it, then they should go work for one of those companies that care only about paying employees whatever they want. Oh wait...

Most workers in this country do just fine without Unions. Your company is cutting your pay and you don't like it? Then leave. If my pay was cut significantly enough to overcome all the other advantages of working for the company that employs me, I'd leave.

The unions need to pick their battles. In this instance, they have absolutely nothing going in their favor. They make products for vehicles GM is facing little demand for, in an overall market that is at its weakest point in the cycle, and a buyer's labor market. American Axle apparently has pretty good capacity abroad to shift operations. Made short: GM has declining need for AA's products, and AA has declining need for UAW employees. Instead of striking to demand wages far above their market value, maybe its time they start looking at more promising labor markets.

Now if the situation was different, then the union action could make perfect sense. If demand for the product was increasing, their wages were below the market rate, and the availability of non-UAW labor was low, then I'd say the union would not be working in their employees favor if they didn't strike.

As I said, its all about picking your battles and knowing the economics of the situation. With increasing globalization the unions and their workers need to realize that manufacturing is not America's competitive strength. Our strengths are services (especially location specific) and ownership. Entering one of those fields is the only logical decision. Stubbornly clinging to manufacturing when other countries can do it better is all but suicide.

I'll just stop - I promise. Otherwise I...nevermind. If you're really interested in talking about this; we can take it through PMs.

[Dan]

American Axle cant afford to keep American jobs because of the greedy unions. They want to give their workers a 50% pay cut because they are getting paid twice what the competition pays their workers. In other words they have been overpaid for a long time. Unions seem to have the idea in their head that they deserve to get paid what they need for a certain standard of living no matter what. That is total bullshit. Workers get paid what their position and skills warrant, not what they want. Its little wonder American businesses cannot compete internationally because they are crippled by the unions expecting far more then they deserve. Its not a company's fault that a worker has no job skills worth a damn, yet in America the company has to foot the bill for it.

[Mr. Wyndham]

America can't compete with other nations in manufacturing because we're too high up on the Food chain!! It's not the Unions fault, it's not the companies fault, it's the way the world works. It's cheaper to build crap elsewhere, because that worker's standard of living only needs a small amount to stay consistant.

Too many people see the situation through a very small tube. Why did all of a sudden this start happening with competing manufacturing costs? Because American workers suddenly got paid enormous amounts of money? Or because Asia, and India started making crap for cheap, and our companies are having trouble competing on such an uneven playing field. It isn'y our guys that are being paid TOO MUCH, it's overseas workers being paid TOO LITTLE in comparison!!

I'm sorry if I don't feel it's greedy to want a decent living. I'm also sorry if I realize that what someone in China gets paid for a job does NOT equal what the job is worth here in the US. That is foolhardy to believe, imo. Lesser nations seek to gain our standard of living in the US for a reason - because we have a very good life here. Eventually they'll reach such a level, at which time it will be no cheaper to make things anywhere else.

Our dollar value is going down, their currency is coming up -- within a couple of decades everyone will be about even as far as value, which makes the only difference in cost the shipping element (See: Australia and G8 costs). Then where will it be cheaper to make things????

I'm getting awful tired of reading all this Union-hating nonsense. I'm not saying anyone's wrong, and I'm not saying that these Unions are always right (Make no mistake about that - they are not always right). But this constant, spit-fire flailing on Unions becuase there's no one else to blame is really getting on my nerves.

[Muscle Master]

Back on track:

http://www.carseek.com/news/may2008/...to-end-strike/

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by Dan

American Axle cant afford to keep American jobs because of the greedy unions. They want to give their workers a 50% pay cut because they are getting paid twice what the competition pays their workers. In other words they have been overpaid for a long time. Unions seem to have the idea in their head that they deserve to get paid what they need for a certain standard of living no matter what. That is total bullshit. Workers get paid what their position and skills warrant, not what they want. Its little wonder American businesses cannot compete internationally because they are crippled by the unions expecting far more then they deserve. Its not a company's fault that a worker has no job skills worth a damn, yet in America the company has to foot the bill for it.

you, sir, are wrong... and I'm not some nutjob who supports unions 100% (even though I am a paid and proud union member), I'm a real human being, I work in a real job where union representation and contracts are what keep me paid what I should get paid and have a degree in Mechanical Engineering that I earned on my own time and with my own money.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

America can't compete with other nations in manufacturing because we're too high up on the Food chain!! It's not the Unions fault, it's not the companies fault, it's the way the world works. It's cheaper to build crap elsewhere, because that worker's standard of living only needs a small amount to stay consistant.

Too many people see the situation through a very small tube. Why did all of a sudden this start happening with competing manufacturing costs? Because American workers suddenly got paid enormous amounts of money? Or because Asia, and India started making crap for cheap, and our companies are having trouble competing on such an uneven playing field. It isn'y our guys that are being paid TOO MUCH, it's overseas workers being paid TOO LITTLE in comparison!!

I'm sorry if I don't feel it's greedy to want a decent living. I'm also sorry if I realize that what someone in China gets paid for a job does NOT equal what the job is worth here in the US. That is foolhardy to believe, imo. Lesser nations seek to gain our standard of living in the US for a reason - because we have a very good life here. Eventually they'll reach such a level, at which time it will be no cheaper to make things anywhere else.

Our dollar value is going down, their currency is coming up -- within a couple of decades everyone will be about even as far as value, which makes the only difference in cost the shipping element (See: Australia and G8 costs). Then where will it be cheaper to make things????

I'm getting awful tired of reading all this Union-hating nonsense. I'm not saying anyone's wrong, and I'm not saying that these Unions are always right (Make no mistake about that - they are not always right). But this constant, spit-fire flailing on Unions becuase there's no one else to blame is really getting on my nerves.

Dragoneye is right on everything he's said here... and let me tell you, folks, the Chinese are already looking to invest here... did you know that more Chinese have internet access than Americans? did you know that only about 12% of China has internet access whereas 71% of Americans do? did you know that we are rapidly getting to a point where American labor will be paid the same as labor in foreign countries? did you know the "minimum wage" in Australia is about $20/hr? and that a Holden Commodore SS sells for more than a Pontiac G8 GXP will sell for, even though it is, essentially, going to be the same car?

the globalization of all economies is coming... some day soon, almost every nation's currency will be valued at the same as the dollar... and as the cost of labor comes up in other countries, the fact that American labor does it better will be the deciding factor... we are the leaders of the free world and we are the leaders of civilization... our way of life is the standard by which all other civilizations are measured... the "American dream" is what other countries strive for... and its why more people come to America to achieve the dream rather than make their own countries better... do not EVER doubt that we are the greatest nation on the planet... the luxuries that a dollar affords here is greater than any other currency in the world... no matter what its value on the open market is.

Unions have a place in America today just as much as they did back in the early 20th century when they were formed... corporate America, by far and away, is not here to help you... it is here to exploit you and your earnings in whatever way it can best find to benefit itself... you, me and almost everyone else on these forums are in the exact same boat: we are peasants in a nation where 10% of the populus controls over 50% of the wealth... and Unions seek to equalize that ratio... yes, there are those that exploit the Unions to keep their lazy a$$es from having to do work... yes, the lazy bastards and useless employees are protected by the Unions just like the hardest workers and guys who pick up the slack for the good of the company and the betterment of the job... but that does not change the fact that the Union is the last, and best, line of defense between the greed of corporate America and the working man that the Union represents.

here is an example of what I am talking about: the Burlington Northern/Santa Fe Rail Road is one of the largest railroads in the continental United States... they have what we call "profit sharing" where the employees choose to lose a small percentage of their wage increase in favor of receiving bonuses based on the company's performance each quarter or overall annual performance... in the last quarter of 2007, the BNSF had a record quarter and finished off a record fiscal year... you would presume that this would mean that the employees would get a nice, fat bonus check, right? you would be WRONG... the BNSF had set their goals so high that the company never even got CLOSE to the goals... and the goals were so unrealistic that the company tried to actually take money BACK from the employees... so tell me, folks, how is this "profit sharing" if the company does well and then tries to steal money back from its employees?

that not enough for ya? here's another one: the Union Pacific Rail Road in April, 1998, gave all of its employees (which includes me) 250shares of UPRR stock that had to be sold at $55 or more, since that is what it was worth when it was "given" to the employees... if the stock was valued at less than $55/share, you couldn't sell it... if it was valued at over $55/share, you got to keep the profit above $55/share... the plan was for this to last 10 years, and to expire on April 29, 2008... fast forward to the end of April, 2008... stocks had been at a record level for the UPRR... for the last 8 quarters, the UPRR had been posting record profits and record amounts of revenue... the "employee stock" plan was expiring on April 29, 2008... on April 30, 2008, the board of directors voted to allow a "stock split" for 2/1 of every share held publicly... the day AFTER the employee stock plan expired, the company decided to do this... for EIGHT QUARTERS there was profit... and the day after the stock plan is when they voted for the stock split... folks, it doesn't get any more obvious than this... corporate America is out to benefit itself, not you... and the Democrats and Republicans are rolling around in the same dirty bed... for every dollar that you perceive to get back from the government, there is a business somewhere that gets $10 back.

not all corporate America is evil... there are a million good and honest employers and managers out there... but greed is alive and well in the upper offices of big business... and just because you think you are right doesn't mean that you are... one of my favorite sayings is, "fortunately, the truth does not hinge on whether or not you believe it"... Unions have a place in America... they must also acknowledge that helping a company stay profittable is what justifies their existence... there is a common ground, its just a matter of digging around until that common ground is found.

[Dan]

I disagree with the statement that unions have a place in America. When they were formed they were needed to protect workers because there was nothing and no one else doing so. Now there are laws all over the place to protect workers rights, the union is a completely outdated idea. Their main function now seems to be to get ridiculous benefits for their workers by pointing a financial pistol to the heads of the companies they work for. Some of the things they ask for boggle the mind. Getting paid after you get laid off?!?! Job guarantees?!?! How preposterous is that? What company could possibly know what their market will be like in even 5 years? If you went to GM 5 years ago and told them they would be slashing big truck production because no one is buying them because gas prices more then doubled they would have laughed in your face. Now look at where we are.

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by Dan

I disagree with the statement that unions have a place in America. When they were formed they were needed to protect workers because there was nothing and no one else doing so. Now there are laws all over the place to protect workers rights, the union is a completely outdated idea. Their main function now seems to be to get ridiculous benefits for their workers by pointing a financial pistol to the heads of the companies they work for. Some of the things they ask for boggle the mind. Getting paid after you get laid off?!?! Job guarantees?!?! How preposterous is that? What company could possibly know what their market will be like in even 5 years? If you went to GM 5 years ago and told them they would be slashing big truck production because no one is buying them because gas prices more then doubled they would have laughed in your face. Now look at where we are.

you are applying a single instance and making a gross generalization based on that one instance... I can point to several instances of where they are beneficial... sorry, mate, you're still wrong... and your gross generalizations are refuted by my previous post... there is common ground, but its hard to see it when public opinion is being swayed by a media that is extremely good at oversensationalizing the problem and blaming the wrong person.

[Kyle2k]

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

you, sir, are wrong... and I'm not some nutjob who supports unions 100% (even though I am a paid and proud union member), I'm a real human being, I work in a real job where union representation and contracts are what keep me paid what I should get paid and have a degree in Mechanical Engineering that I earned on my own time and with my own money.




Dragoneye is right on everything he's said here... and let me tell you, folks, the Chinese are already looking to invest here... did you know that more Chinese have internet access than Americans? did you know that only about 12% of China has internet access whereas 71% of Americans do? did you know that we are rapidly getting to a point where American labor will be paid the same as labor in foreign countries? did you know the "minimum wage" in Australia is about $20/hr? and that a Holden Commodore SS sells for more than a Pontiac G8 GXP will sell for, even though it is, essentially, going to be the same car?

the globalization of all economies is coming... some day soon, almost every nation's currency will be valued at the same as the dollar... and as the cost of labor comes up in other countries, the fact that American labor does it better will be the deciding factor... we are the leaders of the free world and we are the leaders of civilization... our way of life is the standard by which all other civilizations are measured... the "American dream" is what other countries strive for... and its why more people come to America to achieve the dream rather than make their own countries better... do not EVER doubt that we are the greatest nation on the planet... the luxuries that a dollar affords here is greater than any other currency in the world... no matter what its value on the open market is.

Unions have a place in America today just as much as they did back in the early 20th century when they were formed... corporate America, by far and away, is not here to help you... it is here to exploit you and your earnings in whatever way it can best find to benefit itself... you, me and almost everyone else on these forums are in the exact same boat: we are peasants in a nation where 10% of the populus controls over 50% of the wealth... and Unions seek to equalize that ratio... yes, there are those that exploit the Unions to keep their lazy a$$es from having to do work... yes, the lazy bastards and useless employees are protected by the Unions just like the hardest workers and guys who pick up the slack for the good of the company and the betterment of the job... but that does not change the fact that the Union is the last, and best, line of defense between the greed of corporate America and the working man that the Union represents.

here is an example of what I am talking about: the Burlington Northern/Santa Fe Rail Road is one of the largest railroads in the continental United States... they have what we call "profit sharing" where the employees choose to lose a small percentage of their wage increase in favor of receiving bonuses based on the company's performance each quarter or overall annual performance... in the last quarter of 2007, the BNSF had a record quarter and finished off a record fiscal year... you would presume that this would mean that the employees would get a nice, fat bonus check, right? you would be WRONG... the BNSF had set their goals so high that the company never even got CLOSE to the goals... and the goals were so unrealistic that the company tried to actually take money BACK from the employees... so tell me, folks, how is this "profit sharing" if the company does well and then tries to steal money back from its employees?

that not enough for ya? here's another one: the Union Pacific Rail Road in April, 1998, gave all of its employees (which includes me) 250shares of UPRR stock that had to be sold at $55 or more, since that is what it was worth when it was "given" to the employees... if the stock was valued at less than $55/share, you couldn't sell it... if it was valued at over $55/share, you got to keep the profit above $55/share... the plan was for this to last 10 years, and to expire on April 29, 2008... fast forward to the end of April, 2008... stocks had been at a record level for the UPRR... for the last 8 quarters, the UPRR had been posting record profits and record amounts of revenue... the "employee stock" plan was expiring on April 29, 2008... on April 30, 2008, the board of directors voted to allow a "stock split" for 2/1 of every share held publicly... the day AFTER the employee stock plan expired, the company decided to do this... for EIGHT QUARTERS there was profit... and the day after the stock plan is when they voted for the stock split... folks, it doesn't get any more obvious than this... corporate America is out to benefit itself, not you... and the Democrats and Republicans are rolling around in the same dirty bed... for every dollar that you perceive to get back from the government, there is a business somewhere that gets $10 back.

not all corporate America is evil... there are a million good and honest employers and managers out there... but greed is alive and well in the upper offices of big business... and just because you think you are right doesn't mean that you are... one of my favorite sayings is, "fortunately, the truth does not hinge on whether or not you believe it"... Unions have a place in America... they must also acknowledge that helping a company stay profittable is what justifies their existence... there is a common ground, its just a matter of digging around until that common ground is found.

Common sense FTW

[The_Blur]

I need to reiterate what I said and add to it. Workers are very valuable, but repeated strikes against their company meant that the company will eventually seek other forms of labor. Eventually, the union will get hurt by its own tactics. This will lead to the traditional abuses of early capitalism where the company seeks out workers who are more compliant—in this case, overseas. Unions protect workers so much that they tend to forget that they have competition elsewhere, leading to cocky behavior like strikes claiming that $60 per hour is not enough—I'll be lucky if I can earn $20 per hour without benefits after a reputable college education! I love workers. This country was built on their sweaty foundation, but this country's future is increasingly dependent on foreign resources as a result of America's demanding cost of production. If workers intend to remain employed by US businesses, then they need to either lobby foreign governments to raise their standards for domestic workers or stop increasing their demands of US companies.

[LostInMoscow]

Back in college, I worked as a co-op electrical engineer in a union coal mine. My boss asked one of the union electricians why he only came to work 3 days a week. His response was, "Can't make it on two."

There are good unions, but the bad ones give them all a bad name.

[TOMS1SS]

Originally Posted by Muscle Master

every corperation goes through these things

Nobody was striking when Sears laid off a bunch of colleagues. Someone should tell these guys its a fact of modern business. I found another job before the layoffs because I saw it coming. You can't work 30 years and retire with anyone nowadays.