Sign 2 Petitions to Repeal CAFE (or just 1)

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by rayhawk

Increase regulation on industry? Really? Do you have any idea how over regulated much of our industry is? I should say how over regulated it was as the most heavily regulated ones are nearly non-existent now. Read up on the plating industry sometime for example. Sure, regulations are a necessary evil but as long as there are countries with fewer regulations, each new regulation made in the interest of protecting someone or something will always cost some people their jobs.

You're not understanding the concept here. No one who drives a V8 likes CAFE. I'm proposing removing CAFE in exchange for something else.

I also suggested industry as more polluting than automobiles. I'm not saying in my proposal to do this. I'm just giving an example. The reality is that we have CAFE because environmentalists say cars pollute too much. They're wrong, but alas we have regulations. We can't override these environmentalists because there are too many of them, so let's compromise with them. We change CAFE to something else so that we're happy, and we make the air cleaner through something else which makes them happy.

No matter what I propose, someone will disagree. You're more than welcome not to agree. This proposal does not become law because I get 100k signatures. It just gets a statement from the White House.

[rez333]

You burn more fuel, you produce more CO2. There's nothing you can make that can reduce CO2 without also reducing fuel consumption. Environmentalists are primarily concerned with CO2.

[The Stig]

Originally Posted by rez333

You burn more fuel, you produce more CO2. There's nothing you can make that can reduce CO2 without also reducing fuel consumption. Environmentalists are primarily concerned with CO2.

What about green algae? It can convert CO2 to O2.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by The Stig

What about green algae? It can convert CO2 to O2.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by The Stig

What about green algae? It can convert CO2 to O2.

Originally Posted by The_Blur

This might be off topic - but I'm such a big fan of the "green crude" concept by way of algae...their cell structure is 50% oil or more depending on the species....harvest that, and you can refine out gasoline, ethanol, diesel, even lubricating oils and plastics...

Some estimates say that if you dedicated 1/10 the acreage of the state of New Mexico to algae farms across the country - we could replace 100% of our usage of petroleum, without actually changing anything about the way we live our lives.

Cars would still be internal combustion, we could still make tupperware and plastic bags...but the fuel burns cleaner, and the plants it's derived from absorbs the C02 is emits when burned back out of the atmosphere during growth.

I think this stuff is such a cool concept!

Back on topic, though...the current CAFE laws would not account for this stuff if/when it makes it to primetime...

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

This guy is not a chemist.

Either way, the message is clear. I want a system measuring total emissions based on quality and mass emitted instead of a system measuring how far you can go on a gallon of gas.

One way or another, we need to evaluate the damage caused by emissions. If we can eliminate the CAFE rules, maybe we'll be forced to increase regulation on real polluters, like industry, and start allowing Americans to buy cars of whatever fuel economy we want. That is the capitalistic way.

Ultimately, this petition is not a guarantee of policy change. It is a request for feedback from the Office of the President. We are not on track to get any feedback with the signatures we have received so far. If you expect change, you have to act. With all the posts scared of losing the V8 sometime in the future, I'd expect more votes, but I guess some guys would rather complain.

Blur, if you are only talking about cars, then CO2 regs are the same as FE regs. There is no magic that allows you to by a low emissions car that gets whatever FE you want. They are one and the same.

I don't see anyone complaining about your hope, we (at least I) am saying that regulating emissions gets us to the exact same place.

BTW, 60 g/km CO2 (proposed Euro spec) = 90 MPG on the US EPA cycle.

So I guess I'm not clear on what you are hoping for in the Poll.

So unless you are talking about something like each individual gets some type of emissions limit to "spend" how you want and you can put the expensive emissions factory on your house and spend wildly on your car then I'm not clear.

[Captain Awesome]

The only problem with this type of petiton (and I see people falling into this trap all the time), is that by having it, we lend credibility to the myth that cars are a significant factor in pollution.

While mother nature gets a free pass belching tons of these <scare quote>dangerous</scare quote> things into the air, the poor commuter is demonized.

We should have a petition in place of this one that says we refuse to accept punishment for the damage that the earth is inflicting upon itself with all of the nasty CO2 it belches out and the MUCH more climate adverse poison we call "water vapor".

After that we need a petition for someone to turn down the thermostat on the Sun, because it's getting too hot here too, and we had nothing to do with that either.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

The only problem with this type of petiton (and I see people falling into this trap all the time), is that by having it, we lend credibility to the myth that cars are a significant factor in pollution.

While mother nature gets a free pass belching tons of these <scare quote>dangerous</scare quote> things into the air, the poor commuter is demonized.

We should have a petition in place of this one that says we refuse to accept punishment for the damage that the earth is inflicting upon itself with all of the nasty CO2 it belches out and the MUCH more climate adverse poison we call "water vapor".

After that we need a petition for someone to turn down the thermostat on the Sun, because it's getting too hot here too, and we had nothing to do with that either.

...lol...A favorite of mine was a volcano in the Philippines that covered up Clark Air Base a few years back (I think that was it) spewed out over a thousand times more pollutants into the atmosphere than man has since the start of the industrial revolution...lol

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

The only problem with this type of petiton (and I see people falling into this trap all the time), is that by having it, we lend credibility to the myth that cars are a significant factor in pollution.

While mother nature gets a free pass belching tons of these <scare quote>dangerous</scare quote> things into the air, the poor commuter is demonized.

We should have a petition in place of this one that says we refuse to accept punishment for the damage that the earth is inflicting upon itself with all of the nasty CO2 it belches out and the MUCH more climate adverse poison we call "water vapor".

After that we need a petition for someone to turn down the thermostat on the Sun, because it's getting too hot here too, and we had nothing to do with that either.

I agree...I can appreciate The_Blur's attempt to play their game, though. And in-so doing...hopefully lower what stupidity they've established, at least.



On a slightly related topic...I taught a unit on environment and man's impact a couple of months ago to a group of high-schoolers. I told them all about the situation: what is the topic of discussion. I introduced the politics and opinions that are held, too.

Then I present an array of facts. Some coming from...lets call it "the left", and some coming from the right.

As I showed them these things, I made sure NOT to tell them what to think. Which was important, because I feel so strongly about this. The painfully obvious inconsistencies led them to want to know more...which was my plan. After a week or so of guided research using legitimate online sources, 9/10 of them decided that they believed the evidence suggested our planet was warming...but that it is not man who is causing it.

They decided that it is a good thing to try and save our environment by doing things like recycling, reducing waste, and increasing efficiency in most all things...but they said that it was because it was just the right thing to do. They didn't feel they needed to "save the environment" from some galactic catastrophe.

I was proud of them....I hope they remember it, as they grow up.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I agree...I can appreciate The_Blur's attempt to play their game, though. And in-so doing...hopefully lower what stupidity they've established, at least.



On a slightly related topic...I taught a unit on environment and man's impact a couple of months ago to a group of high-schoolers. I told them all about the situation: what is the topic of discussion. I introduced the politics and opinions that are held, too.

Then I present an array of facts. Some coming from...lets call it "the left", and some coming from the right.

As I showed them these things, I made sure NOT to tell them what to think. Which was important, because I feel so strongly about this. The painfully obvious inconsistencies led them to want to know more...which was my plan. After a week or so of guided research using legitimate online sources, 9/10 of them decided that they believed the evidence suggested our planet was warming...but that it is not man who is causing it.

They decided that it is a good thing to try and save our environment by doing things like recycling, reducing waste, and increasing efficiency in most all things...but they said that it was because it was just the right thing to do. They didn't feel they needed to "save the environment" from some galactic catastrophe.

I was proud of them....I hope they remember it, as they grow up.

We're in between and over-due for another ice-age...I'll take global warming over global cooling all day long...lol...

[Bell040]

signed


.... looks like we have a long way to go. I was #10.

[camaro-dreamer]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

This guy is not a chemist.

Either way, the message is clear. I want a system measuring total emissions based on quality and mass emitted instead of a system measuring how far you can go on a gallon of gas.

One way or another, we need to evaluate the damage caused by emissions. If we can eliminate the CAFE rules, maybe we'll be forced to increase regulation on real polluters, like industry, and start allowing Americans to buy cars of whatever fuel economy we want. That is the capitalistic way.

Ultimately, this petition is not a guarantee of policy change. It is a request for feedback from the Office of the President. We are not on track to get any feedback with the signatures we have received so far. If you expect change, you have to act. With all the posts scared of losing the V8 sometime in the future, I'd expect more votes, but I guess some guys would rather complain.

This guy is a chemical engineer and knows that this simply isn't the way to go .

We can make new catalysts to improve the emission of some dangerous, things mainly SOx and NOx. However, catalysts simply do not reduce the amount of CO2 produced by your car.

The problem is that these people think CO2 is a pollutant. The irony is that we legislate emissions systems which both restrict the flow of exhaust and add weight to the vehicle. Then, we legislate new safety systems which add additional weight to the vehicle. Finally, we complain that through our legislated extra weight and restricted exhaust, cars are now too heavy and spew out too much CO2. Of course, according to those who legislated this crap, we must now be forced into accepting inferior automotive products. Note that I am not saying that the engineering of these products is inferior. In fact, much the opposite is true.

If we as a country want to do something about CO2 emissions, we need to do something about how we transport goods to market. Yes, I am looking at you 7 mpg truck.

[motorhead]

You don't understand the real reasons as to why Cafe exist with this argument that you are trying to make OP. Without getting very political, I can't explain them too you either. Your petition is a waste of time. Nice Idea none the less.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Blur, if you are only talking about cars, then CO2 regs are the same as FE regs. There is no magic that allows you to by a low emissions car that gets whatever FE you want. They are one and the same.

I don't see anyone complaining about your hope, we (at least I) am saying that regulating emissions gets us to the exact same place.

BTW, 60 g/km CO2 (proposed Euro spec) = 90 MPG on the US EPA cycle.

So I guess I'm not clear on what you are hoping for in the Poll.

So unless you are talking about something like each individual gets some type of emissions limit to "spend" how you want and you can put the expensive emissions factory on your house and spend wildly on your car then I'm not clear.

I'm hoping for CAFE to be replaced. We both know that CAFE's requirements are getting increasingly stringent, but the buying habits of Americans are not changing to keep up with them. As a consequence, we're getting more expensive technologies placed in the powertrains of cars that everyone uses. While these are good for some innovation, they are bad because they artificially increase the price of these powertrains and reduce customer choice in engines, performance, and features because the money that would go to manufacturing those options is spent elsewhere.

While GM and other manufacturers have done a great job of providing excellent products while still complying with federal regulations, it is clear that Americans need to eventually be nudged toward more efficient, smaller vehicles. How do we nudge people toward vehicles that allow the corporate average to improve? Prices go up. Americans like big vehicles disproportionately more than Europeans or Asians, and it shows in car purchases. CAFE provides some consideration for this by offering a better system for trucks, but it fails to help larger cars, and your average family isn't driving Minis.

What needs to happen is a change in the system, but environmentalists won't let this system die without a replacement, so we have to compromise. We compromise by offering an alternative system. The industry leadership can then meet with elected officials and appropriate members of the executive branch to discuss what standards are reasonable, and then those can be enacted. While this is taking place, it doesn't make sense for CAFE to continue since a replacement would be in effect, so it is likely that there would be a loosening of future standards until the new system can take effect.

Originally Posted by motorhead

You don't understand the real reasons as to why Cafe exist with this argument that you are trying to make OP. Without getting very political, I can't explain them too you either. Your petition is a waste of time. Nice Idea none the less.

I do appreciate the feedback and hope that you are contributing your efforts toward your goals. If you do agree that CAFE is bad, this petition is not the only way to let people know about your opinion. If you disagree, it looks like this petition won't get the signatures necessary anyway at this pace.