GOVERNMENT WILL OWN 'UP TO 69% OF GM'...

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by MrIcky

OK, I personally think that in the absolute best tradition of American Freedom- it's Tran et al's board and if he wants to limit political discussion- Fine by me. There are many boards where you can debate your left vs right til your blue in the face. I haven't found the most recent moderation attempts to be to onerus- keep it honest, keep it factual and I haven't been censored yet.

But I want to make some points that just piss me off on the 'doomsday scenarios'. I'm by nature very optimistic, but there has been complete head in the clouds unreality in calling people doomsday chicken little naysayers.

Here is the progression of some of the overly optimistic people who have been cheered on this board. It's almost like the stages of grief here..

* GM wants money from the Govt. Everyone on the boards needs to support that because GM has a plan! Posts are put up about what we can do to help GM. People who question that are internet bullied.

* Some people said that doesn't sound right, can we see this plan? The response from prominent people on this board was no way- they don't need to show it to you, you need to keep your plans secret because of competition! Turns out they didn't have a plan that could prevent bankruptcy.

* GM wants even more money month after month even though it was apparent 3 months ago that bankruptcy was MORE than 50/50 odds. "GM won't file bankruptcy, quit spouting off with the Chicken Little crap" was the response.

* The Government is going to CONTROL the majority of GM's stocks via either bankruptcy or assistance. "No they're not- they don't want to control GM. The current administration has said he doesn't want to take part in the day to day management" was the response. Maybe they don't want to take place in the day to day management, but it's pretty clear they want to decide GM's direction at this point.

* Bankruptcies ALWAYS take time, now people are thinking that this is going to happen over a weekend or something with no shutdowns. Do you want to side with the optimists or the realists on that bet? (edit:some of these people are same people who were saying a bankruptcy would never happen, and we should just give money to GM no questions asked)

Maybe I didn't make my point well; I'll clarify it just in case. Since January, there has been call after call to not post negative opinions on the direction of GM. It's been labeled as "panicky" and "sky is falling" every time someone looks at the train wreck and calls it a train wreck instead of calling it a butterfly. Well here we are 4 days from June and the tally is: $ was thrown at a bankrupt company that had no plan, but now has a new plan in the last week to give 74% control to the Government and 17% control to the Unions to survive. I hate to say it- this bankruptcy does not appear to be a 'makes you stronger-lean and mean!' bankruptcy. It actually appears from a distance that Chrysler's bankruptcy is much better planned. GM's bankruptcy's is more of a 'it makes your company much much smaller while increasing bureaucracy' sort of bankruptcy.

I've had it up to my eyebrows with people blindly defending GM and their direction based on 'lets not have panic posts'. And you can look at my posts, I haven't been panicky. I'm still not panicky- I'm realistic and I'm not about to call this train wreck a butterfly.

Good post.. Right vs Left is too simple a way to frame the debates over what to support and how to support it. To me it is as simple as limiting Government (Conservative) vs. expanding Government (Progressive Liberal). At this point in time we are witnessing the largest expansion of Government since FDR's new deal and General Motors is the largest government takeover of a private company in the large history of our country. Planned or not, this is going to happen and just because there is little we can do to stop it doesn't mean we wave the white flag and do nothing about it.. yes this forum is owned, paid for, and run by Tran and I have respected his decisions so far when he's made them. That is why I am trying to show him by means of this thread that some political discussion can occur without fighting and is healthier than shutting it down continuously. You can say it was tried before however it wasn't implemented in the best manner in order for it to be controllable and easily moderated. It would be easy to control if like I said above, you limit who can participate by having a minimum of 500 posts to be able to post, and if you misbehave you get banned from that section for some time until you learn how to debate without name-calling or attacking anyone directly on this forum. That would include Barack Obama if he decides to join this forum and debate any member himself. Next week, Obama would be CEO of the company. We'll be hearing what his vision of General Motors will be in the coming weeks on top of what we already have heard him say about the MPG average or per car..

[War Eagle]

Guys,

We are in good hands, finally

We will have "Cars Designed to make New Economic sense."

Check out the Grabber Orange and Rally yellow.

[Camaro_Corvette]

Can you make your own group?

[Supermans]

This one's better..


It's called The Pelosi..

It does free up a lot of garage space.

[SSOOCH]

I don't see the problem. I love America. Chevrolet's built by Uncle Sam....right on!

I wonder when one will be called un-patriotic because they don't like GM anymore because the United States of America's gov owns most of it....

I don't get it, people love the Armed Forces and support troops...isn't that owned by the US Govt?

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by SSOOCH

I don't see the problem. I love America. Chevrolet's built by Uncle Sam....right on!

I wonder when one will be called un-patriotic because they don't like GM anymore because the United States of America's gov owns most of it....

I don't get it, people love the Armed Forces and support troops...isn't that owned by the US Govt?

See the post above yours.. Basically by GM being owned by the Government, it allows for the Government to decide what types of vehicles we all should be driving. Do you not see that as a problem?

[War Eagle]

Supermans, I love that one.

As long as we all keep our sense of humor everything will be fine and work out OK.

[nUcLeArEnVoY]

Originally Posted by Supermans

See the post above yours.. Basically by GM being owned by the Government, it allows for the Government to decide what types of vehicles we all should be driving. Do you not see that as a problem?

Don't forget what started this, man. It's GM who went to the government asking for money, in a very unorthodox way I might add. :\ You borrow over 10 billion dollars from someone, then you need to expect some prerequisites. The government would have absolutely no stake in this if GM would've entered a bankruptcy by themselves. Albeit if that happened, survival might not be as likely than with the government backing them. The government might be what keeps GM alive, the problem is, and I understand how it is a problem, is that it won't be brought back the way we would like it to be. Everyone is congealing these 'sky is falling America is going to produce a bunch of Yugos and Geos' perceptions out of the woodwork. That is not going to happen because it would be overly bland. Believe it or not, even the government acknowledges the car nuts like us.

They should have went into bankruptcy in the first place, especially seeing as how it's projected to happen anyway... but now they're going into bankruptcy with billions of dollars indebted to the government that bailed them out. Which is a trifle ironic if I do say so myself, because if you may recall, an overwhelming majority of the folks on this forum including myself vouched for the bailout money to be supplied so we can continue getting our GM cars, namely the Camaro. Arguments stating that they should just go into bankruptcy were FEW and far between during that time JUST like how support for Obama is FEW and far between right now. Funny how things change harmoniously with the circumstances.

Now do not get me wrong, I am not in full support of such a swift, dramatic change in vehicular standards either. I love the Camaro just as much as you all. But I am not being entirely selfish for the sake of performance cars or low MPG 'fun' vehicles like the Camaro either, because that being the case we're no better than those stupid smug Prius drivers. The bigger picture is, MORE people want to save the environment, get high MPG, yadda, yadda, yadda than they do performance cars - that was shown quite clearly last year during the election considering the ballot results. So that is what is going to come out of Detroit.



Oh, and to answer your initial inquiry - the reason we prefer to stay out of these kinds of topics is because people like Diddiyo and I are well aware that this is a predominantly Conservative forum. Understandably so, Conservative/Republic beliefs almost go with the territory with Muscle Car or Performance Car passion. And we know that if we do try to argue it, we will get chewed out Rancor style, and quite frankly we're not in the mood for that nor do we want a bad rap around here. In fact, I am pretty sure my preceding dispute is going to open up a can of worms beyond my wildest dreams. Don't be too hard on me.

[Camaro_Corvette]

Originally Posted by Supermans

See the post above yours.. Basically by GM being owned by the Government, it allows for the Government to decide what types of vehicles we all should be driving. Do you not see that as a problem?

Yes, but if the government doesn't deliver us cars that we actually want GM will tank. Then they will receive no tax money in return, thus representing a total loss on all sides. I know what your talking about. But the gov't can't just make GM sell cars that nobody wants. It's in the company's best interest to continue to make the awesome products that they have been giving us for years. It's no secret that Americans are becoming less brand loyal everyday. We just don't care anymore. If this company isn't making something we want then we will just go to a competitor. Simple as that.

[Supermans]

This is an interesting article below which has a reflection of both sides of this issue.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...ts-mixed-grade

Poll: Obama car involvement gets mixed grade
Charlie Cain and Mark Hornbeck / Detroit News Lansing Bureau

Michiganians appear evenly divided in their belief that President Barack Obama's heavy involvement in restructuring the auto industry is doing more harm than good, a Detroit News/WXYZ survey shows.

With Chrysler LLC in bankruptcy proceedings and General Motors Corp. apparently ready to follow suit, 42 percent of poll respondents say Obama's role has hurt the domestic automakers while 39 percent say he's been helpful. The poll's margin of error is plus or minus 4 percentage points.

Under pressure from the federal government, GM will close 16 plants, the iconic Pontiac brand is disappearing and thousands of auto dealerships across the nation will shut their showrooms.

Advertisement

"The federal government is overstepping what it is supposed to be doing with private business," said Katrina Hopkins, 48, a stay-at-home mom from Pontiac who participated in the survey conducted last week by EPIC-MRA in Lansing. "The government helped to create the auto crisis."

But Tom Sorrell, 56, an unemployed tool-and-die maker from Hillsdale, said the government's role in restructuring "is helping a little bit. I don't put much faith in big business making the right decisions anymore."

Among Metro Detroiters, 43 percent said he has helped the industry compared to 36 percent in the rest of the state. Also, 56 percent of Democrats, 40 percent of independents and 19 percent of Republicans say the president's involvement has been helpful.

While Obama gets questionable grades on dealing with Michigan's signature industry, his overall approval ratings are climbing. Sixty-one percent give the president a favorable job grade, up 7 percentage points from a poll conducted two months earlier. His 37 percent negative rating is slightly better than the 39 percent in March.

Nearly two-thirds of women give him good grades compared to 56 percent of men. By party, 88 percent of Democrats, 51 percent of independents and 28 percent of Republicans give him high marks.

Michigan voters are more optimistic that the country is headed in the right direction. The surveys show 37 percent thought the U.S. was moving in the right direction in March compared to 45 percent in the latest poll. Nearly half of respondents thought the country will be in better shape a year from now, while 19 percent said things will be worse.

Among issues facing the state, 62 percent identified the No. 1 problem as improving Michigan's economy and providing jobs, well ahead of improving education, at 10 percent -- the only other issue that made double digits. The state's 12.9 percent jobless rate in April remains the nation's highest.

nUcLeArEnVoY,

I'm glad you are in this forum and I respect your opinion and input on this issue even though you'd prefer it not discussed. As to who started what and when, I would go as far back as the creation of the workers union and the health benefits promised to all GM workers and not just GM asking the Government for loan money to stay alive. A bankruptcy back then at the same time the 10 Billion was given out to GM would have allowed for a restructuring of all that was bringing GM down including Legacy costs and cutting back on brands, vehicles and plants that weren't doing well... In other words all that is being talked about now but without the massive Government takeover that is occurring.

We can and should discuss the mistakes made and correctly lay blame to all aspects and areas and not focus on choosing one moment in time to make a point. All is relevant and all has changed now that the company is deemed by the Government too big to fail so it is taking it over.. Competition is not longer an issue for the Government as they can make whatever rules they want now for their GM company. Ford will not be able to compete for long and may end up simply joining with the Government as well at some point. Forget competition with other countries as the Government would actually make more money having Toyota and Nissan sell more cars than them in the US since the Government would make more money in the form of taxes.. So you see everything changes and competition is out the window.. We all just witnessed 10 billion of our tax money given out as a loan disappear into thin air.. What is going to happen next? All of this needs to be discussed and understood. I don't have all the answers or solutions. I just know that what really needs to be done is for the Government to give up GM control and place it back in the hands of the private sector at some point.. I just don't believe the Government has ever done such a thing before so there is no precedence. History proves it is much easier to expand and grow Government than to make it smaller. I'm tired and probably not making much sense so I'm off.. Goodnight..

[Andro]

GM = Government Motors

[Supermans]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ahZ4btu5gXss

GM Bankruptcy ‘Inevitable’ as Bondholders Spurn Offer

May 27 (Bloomberg) -- A General Motors Corp. bankruptcy filing became almost certain after the 100-year-old automaker failed to persuade enough bondholders to take equity in a streamlined company in exchange for $27 billion of debt.

The debt-for-equity swap offer by GM, the world’s largest automaker until its 77-year reign ended last year, failed to win the required 90 percent approval of bondholders by the time it expired last night. The proposal was part of an effort by the Detroit-based company to cut its debt by $44 billion before a June 1 deadline in order to qualify for more bailout loans.

“The expiration of General Motors’ exchange offer makes a bankruptcy filing inevitable,” said Richard Hahn, co-chairman of the bankruptcy practice at Debevoise & Plimpton LLP, a New York law firm that isn’t involved in the GM negotiations.

[Supermans]

Government will now own 72.5% of 'New GM'...

I need to change the title of this thread as it is wrong..

[Kyle2k]

Originally Posted by Andro

GM = Government Motors

How does the new method stop him from posting stuff like that? That is meant to stir the pot and is said with spite and sarcasm- I like your plan Supermans but it can't work for everything.