GM's PR Disaster= Volt?

[jdenotter]

CNG sucks and don't run worth a crap in engines.

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[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The crowd that wants to go that same 40 miles and use ZERO gasoline...............and there is a crowd that is an important point

Yes, there is a crowd for the Volt, but how big is that crowd? The technology of the Volt is amazing, but for GM to stay in business, it has to be profitable. So the multi-billion dollar question is, given that a conventional Cruze has similar performance, similar long range fuel economy, more cargo and people capacity, and will inevitably cost much less to maintain over 15 years/200K miles (a typical life-span for a car today), will there be enough people willing to pay more than double the price for the Volt to cover the costs of developing and producing the Volt? Ultimately, only time will tell, but the initial sales numbers are not looking good.

Originally Posted by Blownhotrodder

And your point is? I dont have a gas tank and pump assm at my house so why would I get a cng setup for my house? CNG is the best alternative we have right now and in the future. Its readily avail right here in the US, costs less than gasoline, and is very clean burning. Oh I guess you were referring to the part where you charge your vehicle at home on a home charger only because it takes so long to charge an electric vehicle. Well you wouldnt have to worry about that either with a CNG vehicle. You telling me a 40 mile range isnt pathetic? I guess you think electricity just comes out of the ground and isnt made? What about the nuclear powerplants and the coal it takes to turn the turbines that produce electricity? What about disposing and manufacturing the batteries? What about the costs to replace the electric motors and the huge batteries these vehicles use? All the sudden a couple hundred psi CNG tank in my car doesnt sound like too big a deal to me. CNG powered vehicles arent anything new, they are being used by the public as we speak and dont cost rediculous amounts like electric powered vehicles do.

I like the idea of natural gas powered cars, but if you were to switch to natural gas today (assuming you could find a place to fill it up regularly, which most people can't), you are making a big gamble. Natural gas is abundant right now because of shale fracking, which is dead center in the cross-hairs of the EPA. Without fracking, natural gas prices could easily go up 4 to 6 fold (to where it was just 4-5 years ago before fracking began) practically overnight as it is even without the increased demand of a substantially increased fleet of CNG cars. Basically, a flavor of the day whim by the EPA could suddenly make $100 or even $200 a barrel oil look damn cheap in comparison, and I'm not about to place any large bets on this EPA doing anything out of good common sense.

The EPA has already screwed the pooch on the cost-effectiveness of diesel. There is no reason to believe they won't do it with natural gas as well.

[Blownhotrodder]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Infrastructure isn't there to support CNG or Hydrogen as viable fuel sources.

Your right its not, not unless you live in places like LA or the like but instead of subsidies on elec. vehicles why not create some jobs and improve the infrastructure making CNG filling stations more avail. The epa wont be happy till were all back in covered wagons.

[FenwickHockey65]

Because the infrastructure for electricity is already there and present in every home and garage.

[Txmxracer]

Just take a moment to think about a tank of hydrogen gas in your car. It is highly explosive. If you get into a wreck, and the tank busts, just a spark could kill many people. Plus, 99% of the hydrogen on this planet is trapped in water molecules. It takes a lot more energy to take apart those molecules than what the hydrogen will give us back, making it inefficient. Even if we were able to get cheap hydrogen gas, fuel cell technology is extremely expensive so it wouldn't be too economical right now.

I am no expert on CNG but from what I hear, it is not a good short-term solution.

[Blownhotrodder]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Because the infrastructure for electricity is already there and present in every home and garage.

It may be but that doesnt mean you have the capability to quick charge your vehicle. You would have to let it sit overnight or buy a quick charge station for thousands of dollars. What are you going to do if you drive cross state or run out of charge away from your home? You would have to wait for the battery to charge because the "infrastructure" isnt there to charge the batteries yet. Im not saying CNG alone or hydrogen alone or electricity alone is the answer. I think the answer is a combination of those. I just think too many eggs are being placed in one basket.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Blownhotrodder

It may be but that doesnt mean you have the capability to quick charge your vehicle. You would have to let it sit overnight or buy a quick charge station for thousands of dollars. What are you going to do if you drive cross state or run out of charge away from your home? You would have to wait for the battery to charge because the "infrastructure" isnt there to charge the batteries yet. Im not saying CNG alone or hydrogen alone or electricity alone is the answer. I think the answer is a combination of those. I just think too many eggs are being placed in one basket.

Which is why the Volt is the best choice if you want an electric vehicle. You don't have to worry about waiting for your car to charge because you can simply refuel with gasoline for longer trips or if you forget to charge.

Is it expensive? Yes. Is it the best answer if you want to save money on gas? Probably not. But do you get what you pay for if you buy one? Absolutely.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Txmxracer

Just take a moment to think about a tank of hydrogen gas in your car. It is highly explosive. If you get into a wreck, and the tank busts, just a spark could kill many people. Plus, 99% of the hydrogen on this planet is trapped in water molecules. It takes a lot more energy to take apart those molecules than what the hydrogen will give us back, making it inefficient. Even if we were able to get cheap hydrogen gas, fuel cell technology is extremely expensive so it wouldn't be too economical right now.

I am no expert on CNG but from what I hear, it is not a good short-term solution.

And not a single person has died from a gasoline fire, right?

[Blownhotrodder]

Not many people really want an electric vehicle. The whole concept is to either save money because you dont have to use expensive fuel or for the environment. The Volt is over 40 grand and still for the majority of folks will require the burning of expensive and polluting fuel.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Blownhotrodder

Not many people really want an electric vehicle. The whole concept is to either save money because you dont have to use expensive fuel or for the environment. The Volt is over 40 grand and still for the majority of folks will require the burning of expensive and polluting fuel.

The interest is there for EVs. It's the fact that technology hasn't progressed to the point where they can be built and sold cheaply. There was a time when people were making the same argument you are, only it was for this newfangled invention called a "horseless carriage."

By the way, Volt is now actually under $40k and won't leave you stranded on the side of the highway like a $33k Leaf will. That's the entire concept and major advantage to Volt.

Buying a new car to save money on gas is just stupid. Buying a new car to save the environment is just stupid.

Again, if you are in the market for an EV, Volt is the way to go. If you aren't, then this shouldn't matter to you.

Going back to the TV analogy I always use, there's probably a very good, but expensive 3D TV out there that clearly outclasses its competition. That being said, I'm not in the market for a 3D TV, nor do I want one, so it obviously doesn't apply or matter to me.

[Txmxracer]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

And not a single person has died from a gasoline fire, right?

Never in the history of mankind.
In all seriousness, I bet in quite a few years that hydrogen will be a widely used fuel. Simply because the only by-product is H20.

[camaro1]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

The interest is there for EVs. It's the fact that technology hasn't progressed to the point where they can be built and sold cheaply. There was a time when people were making the same argument you are, only it was for this newfangled invention called a "horseless carriage."

By the way, Volt is now actually under $40k and won't leave you stranded on the side of the highway like a $33k Leaf will. That's the entire concept and major advantage to Volt.

Buying a new car to save money on gas is just stupid. Buying a new car to save the environment is just stupid.

Again, if you are in the market for an EV, Volt is the way to go. If you aren't, then this shouldn't matter to you.

Going back to the TV analogy I always use, there's probably a very good, but expensive 3D TV out there that clearly outclasses its competition. That being said, I'm not in the market for a 3D TV, nor do I want one, so it obviously doesn't apply or matter to me.

where are you buying your volt at? the dealer here they are $47,000

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Blownhotrodder

And your point is? I dont have a gas tank and pump assm at my house so why would I get a cng setup for my house? CNG is the best alternative we have right now and in the future. Its readily avail right here in the US, costs less than gasoline, and is very clean burning. Oh I guess you were referring to the part where you charge your vehicle at home on a home charger only because it takes so long to charge an electric vehicle. Well you wouldnt have to worry about that either with a CNG vehicle. You telling me a 40 mile range isnt pathetic? I guess you think electricity just comes out of the ground and isnt made? What about the nuclear powerplants and the coal it takes to turn the turbines that produce electricity? What about disposing and manufacturing the batteries? What about the costs to replace the electric motors and the huge batteries these vehicles use? All the sudden a couple hundred psi CNG tank in my car doesnt sound like too big a deal to me. CNG powered vehicles arent anything new, they are being used by the public as we speak and dont cost rediculous amounts like electric powered vehicles do.

First, my point was simple. You can't power a car with CNG UNLESS you carry enough CNG to have range. In order to do that you have to have it pressurized. And to do that today it takes a pump in your home to compress the the CNG (at mayb 60 psi to your house) up to a few thousand psi required or a fast fill station which are very limited today. They may not be in the future, but today your best bet is a pump in your garage. So, I was referring to CNG. It takes just as long to pressurize the CNG to have enough for a reasonable range and have enough to go even 100 miles as it does to recharge an EV. And if I remember correctly that does not result in a tank of gasoline. And a couple hundred to several thousand psi of any gas should concern you let alone one that can go boom. At least from an engineering perspective.

But you can in very limited areas use a fast filling station. Those take much less time, but now you are dealing with the lack of infrastructure. And again, do you really want to pump up a tank to a couple thousand psi quickly?

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-n...refueling.aspx

Also for perspective:

Range on a full 3600 psi fill is variable, depending on driving conditions and driving technique. While Honda claims an estimated 225–250 miles from a full CNG tank charge,[10] independent tests have found a lower ranges, at 180–200 miles[21] and "just over 200 miles" (about 300km).[22]

And if you've checked my other posts over the last few years, I suggest you ask everyone that want EVs or Hybrids where they will put the battery when it craps out..................and it will. The responses will make you laugh. "it won't fail, that's what they told me......" LOL

And no, 40 isn't pathetic. Far from it actually. You are apparently beleiving the hype and fraud others are claiming. 100 mile range is very temperature dependant, driving habit dependant and usually needs a tail wind (sorry the last one was a throw in ) And if you look at the statistics, 70% of all drivers are much less than that in their daily driving. You and I may not be, but a large percentage are in that range.

At the end of the day, gasoline has the highest energy density, the lowest infrastructure and transportation costs and is by far the cheapest source of energy on the planet...........................for now. Everything else cost more money and simply causes discussions like this one.

Battery technology may someday get you more range. That is in the works. And MAYBE you would be willing to have your kids run an arc welder near the car to achieve the mythical "fast recharge". CNG and Hydrogen are as you say clean and awesome. But they both have drawbacks, first and formost is the lack of a devivery system. That's why the home charger for CNG is the cool alternative. You have CNG at your house, or most of us do. So if you are willing to use that it takes hours to pressurize the tank.

And if I remember correctly, to have a mere 100 mile or so range with Hydrogen requires several large tanks pressurized to well over 5,000 psi or more. And maybe some of you are ok with that. But were will you go to get that?

So I'm not arguing. We should be persuing all forms of energy. A diversity if you will from electricity, CNG, biofuels, etc. Sometime in the future, gasoline won't be so cheap.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by camaro1

where are you buying your volt at? the dealer here they are $47,000

2012 Volt MSRP is under $40k. Granted, it was achieved by cutting standard features that were deemed better off as options, but it is what it is.