Your thoughts on Cellulosic Ethanol....

[Scotsman]

What do you think the future holds for this much hyped, proposed saving grace for not only the domestic automakers but for our country as well??? It seems like a win win and sure better alternative to hybrids and all the other crap being shoved down our throats.

[Mr. Wyndham]

I think it's only one(though a big one) of a great many things coming together to form the solution to our energy problems. America needs to be energy independant. In fact, Every nation needs to be energy independent...not gonna happen - but it would be ideal.

Anyways, it can now be efficiently produced, for (relatively) cheap, and it's now unbelieveably clean. Cellulosic from Coskata will reduce C02 emmissions by ~84% when compared to gasoline from 'well' to wheel......(hint, hint...~85% reduction in emissions, E85....now lets do E100, and see the emissions coming out of those)

I like it, and if it can be implimented ASAP, and effectively. It can save our V8's. <- If Maximum Bob thinks so...well, dang it, that's good enough for me. It's an excellent relatively short-term fuel solution. But what's gonna happen when we don't need Ethanol anymore - when electric vehicles become so efficient that one charge will last you 1000 miles? Well...I don't think that day's gonna happen, and if it does, then I probably won't be around for it. So kudos to my (future) kids.

Ethanol is a viable, "short-term", fuel solution, and one that I firmly believe needs to be addressed and implemented, as GM keeps saying, NOW.

[Scotsman]

Implementing ethanol into our fuel circulation now is the only thing that's going to ensure that it's proliferation in our economy. It's only when things like this get left on the back burner focus becomes slack and the problem remains unsolved. To be truthful, this can't come soon enough.

[DGthe3]

Why does it have to be Ethanol vs Hybrid, or VVT vs AFM? You can have a hybrid V8 fueled by E85 vehicle with active fuel management and variable valve timing and direct injection, which will then use roughly 10% of the gasoline vs a gasoline engine with none of this. I know that using all those technologies will cost more but you won't need to import gasoline. Sounds like it would help your national economy to do so. Suppporting a domestic automaker and domestic fuel producers keeps the money in your country. We have more oil than we will ever need, but its terrible on the environment.

[GTAHVIT]

I'm with DGthe3.

Before too long we will be able to combine all these or similar capabilities into our motors. And keep consumption down as well as pay an american company for fuel. Sounds great to me. I'm betting when all the oil Shieks aren't getting our money any more they'll start palying nice... Maybe.

[AVENGER]

Had a question about how E85 fuel relates to CAFE. If alternate fuel vehicles, IE hydrogen, electric, etc., have a calculated equivilent mileage, then why are flex fuel vehicles still rated the same as gas burners. The Volt is rated at nearly 100 miles per gal. for the first 100 miles. GM can say this because they count the electric only miles. By that logic an E85 SUV getting 20 miles per gal. would need to burn almost 7 gal. of E85 to burn one gal. of gasoline. So it would follow that if CAFE is only counting gallons of gasoline then an E85 fueled SUV getting 140 miles per gal. of gasoline would seem to be more then inside the CAFE standards. Or is this yet another case of the federal government all having there heads up there asses and refusuing to ask for a light?

P.S. any thoughts on how to pay for road improvements since nobody will be buying gasoline anymore and hence not paying road tax?

[stovt001]

E85 capability earns manufacturers credits. E85 engines aren't rated the same as gasoline-only engines, but they aren't calculated the same way you suggest either.

[Mr. Wyndham]

E85 equals BIG loophole in the CAFE law. You make an E85 vehicle? You get some tax credits - which, in turn can be spent on the vehicles that get fined by the CAFE law. (as I understand it)

And electric vehicles are a whole diff. story - they're 'special'.

[AirGoya]

I love this idea of ethanol!
Its cleaner, keeps the internal combustion engine around, and will cost less eventually becuase of mass production and energy independence.
I think electric cars are a whole other story. I dont like them. But then i do like them because it keeps CAFE of our A**.
I hope its not a temporary solution. I hope ethanol technology gets even cleaner and more efficient so that we dont have to go "all out" electric.

[Scotsman]

Interesting news:

Yesterday I went into the local Mobil station to get gas for my car, and after I got through with the transaction I asked the manager if they planned on getting ethanol pumps? He said next year and the year after all Mobil stations will be getting ethanol pumps. I was really surprised and excited. We'll see how this plays out.

[WillInThe04Ranger]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Why does it have to be Ethanol vs Hybrid, or VVT vs AFM? You can have a hybrid V8 fueled by E85 vehicle with active fuel management and variable valve timing and direct injection, which will then use roughly 10% of the gasoline vs a gasoline engine with none of this. I know that using all those technologies will cost more but you won't need to import gasoline. Sounds like it would help your national economy to do so. Suppporting a domestic automaker and domestic fuel producers keeps the money in your country. We have more oil than we will ever need, but its terrible on the environment.

Imma give you guys some insight (Or what I think it would be). Ford already has a engine like this in place, it's an FFV engine (Flex fuel vehicle) and it does come in V8 (F150 5.4L Triton) I know this because my dad was gonna get one, if you go to ford.com the FFV Engine is a free swap (SO it says) and with this engine it will run off E85 or gasoline. Idk a lot about chevy/GM's engines or Dodge/chrysler either

I have also heard that all the while E85 is more efficent than gas, it also has just about the same amount of emissions

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by WillInThe04Ranger

Imma give you guys some insight (Or what I think it would be). Ford already has a engine like this in place, it's an FFV engine (Flex fuel vehicle) and it does come in V8 (F150 5.4L Triton) I know this because my dad was gonna get one, if you go to ford.com the FFV Engine is a free swap (SO it says) and with this engine it will run off E85 or gasoline. Idk a lot about chevy/GM's engines or Dodge/chrysler either

I have also heard that all the while E85 is more efficent than gas, it also has just about the same amount of emissions

Not sure about the Ford thing, as I don't follow them as much
But here's the dealio reagarding the bold. And I'm quoting from articles regarding GM's partnership with Coskata, so....

E85 is less efficient than gasoline, as it contains less energy per gallon. That's why vehicles get less mileage while running on Ethanol. However, using Coskata's method of creating Ethanol, for every 1 unit of energy put into Ethanol production, the product (ethanol) yeilds 7 units of energy. I've read that gasoline is something like 1 to .90 or something like that. In that way, Ethanol is more efficient, but not while burning it.

And via Coskata; total emissions (that's "well" to wheels) is reduced by 85%!!!

[Scotsman]

Green Fuels Forecast Coskata vid:

[DGthe3]

"We see it as a win-win"

Amen to that! This sounds almost too good to be true, and even if it costs twice as much and they can only get 80% of what they though out of each feedstock, its still amazing. Who cares how much fuel you can get from garbage, its garbage! Tires, plastic, paper, wood, probably anything that contains carbon and hydrogen in large amounts could be used as a feedstock, though I suppose the process is more efficient when using cellulose (woody fibre) from plant materials. The fact that it can recycle difficult things like tires is excellent. Does it solve everything? No. But it does kill 3 birds with 1 stone: lessen the load in landfills, reduce emissions, and reduce your dependence on foreign oil. In the grand scheme of things, it sounds like it will be the most cost effective way of doing things.