Dodge's answer to the ZL1 and GT500???

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Stew

2012 SRTs haven't been put on a roadcourse yet. FYI, the Challenger got a heavily retuned suspension for 11, for 12 it gets another suspension upgrade with the multimode electronic suspension from the Charger and 300. As for keeping up with the Mustang, simple, same reason a Camaro can't on a twisty roadcourse, WEIGHT!

Then I guess going by your reasoning there's nothing for CAMARO to worry about because it's lighter than the MOPAR.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by radz28

Then I guess going by your reasoning there's nothing for CAMARO to worry about because it's lighter than the MOPAR.

Not THAT much lighter. The Mustang is just in a different league than the Camaro and Challnger IMHO, more of a Sportscar (neither of the other 2 are going to challenge an M3 on a roadcourse, sorry). Besides, you are comparing much larger cars that are more grand tourers and I really doubt anyone buying an SRT8 really cares about a roadcourse. IMHO, the only pony I would REALLY consider for roadcourse duties is the Boss 302 as even the ZL1 is going to be at least 4100-4200 pounds ( or more).

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

a Challenger can't compete with a Corvette on a road course. Completely different types of car.

Who said anything about the corvette?

[radz28]

I didn't know GM announced weight specs' for ZL1.

I'm sorry, but I'm not nearly as familiar with the potential of the LX-cars, but what I do know is that there's loads of potential in CAMARO. Considering one of our Sponsors was able to run their SS to nearly the same time around the same course with the same driver equipped to about the same modifications, I'd say the chassis has loads of potential and that GM hasn't even neared the limits of it. ZL1 is going to be a great example of that belief if it performs to the level I believe it will (and I'm not the only one who thinks that way). There's a good chance that upcoming changes for '12 are going to get CAMARO even closer that many will believe, completely stock. I don't think CAMARO was intended to be a grand tourer, like the LX-cars. Size isn't everything, and while it does account for A LOT, a well-tuned chassis is what's going to make the difference. Because I feel the LX-cars are the grand tourers you, too, say they are, I don't think MOPAR will push them to the level GM has committed CAMARO to. Therefore, I don't think the MOPARs are going to be too much to worry about, unless MOPAR makes a change in the direction I believe they are currently running.

Don't take anything away from CAMARO. Development continues from the bottom (I mean that price-wise ) with the V6s (getting new top-ends which are superior to the competition and this is only after a few years of production), through the mid-level V8s, and the top of the range Super-Ponycar. Development is really just getting momentum and I foresee a lot more performance coming down the pipe. Adding an SC to this car is probably not going to threaten the top offerings (in the segment) from GM or Ford much at all. I hope MOPAR really isn't only thinking one-dimensionally with those cars because that would be a real shame. There's more to life than driving straight; that could be why it has the sales it does... I hope these improvements sum up to better competition.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by radz28

I didn't know GM announced weight specs' for ZL1.

I'm sorry, but I'm not nearly as familiar with the potential of the LX-cars, but what I do know is that there's loads of potential in CAMARO. Considering one of our Sponsors was able to run their SS to nearly the same time around the same course with the same driver equipped to about the same modifications, I'd say the chassis has loads of potential and that GM hasn't even neared the limits of it. ZL1 is going to be a great example of that belief if it performs to the level I believe it will (and I'm not the only one who thinks that way). There's a good chance that upcoming changes for '12 are going to get CAMARO even closer that many will believe, completely stock. I don't think CAMARO was intended to be a grand tourer, like the LX-cars. Size isn't everything, and while it does account for A LOT, a well-tuned chassis is what's going to make the difference. Because I feel the LX-cars are the grand tourers you, too, say they are, I don't think MOPAR will push them to the level GM has committed CAMARO to. Therefore, I don't think the MOPARs are going to be too much to worry about, unless MOPAR makes a change in the direction I believe they are currently running.

Don't take anything away from CAMARO. Development continues from the bottom (I mean that price-wise ) with the V6s (getting new top-ends which are superior to the competition and this is only after a few years of production), through the mid-level V8s, and the top of the range Super-Ponycar. Development is really just getting momentum and I foresee a lot more performance coming down the pipe. Adding an SC to this car is probably not going to threaten the top offerings (in the segment) from GM or Ford much at all. I hope MOPAR really isn't only thinking one-dimensionally with those cars because that would be a real shame. There's more to life than driving straight; that could be why it has the sales it does... I hope these improvements sum up to better competition.

I'll say the weight is a guestimate, but yes, I definatly don't see the LX cars as being all out performance cars for he track, they can leave that to Chevy and Ford. I seriously hope that we get a Z28to go against the Boss. they way i see it, for me, a amaro or mustang would be a great weekend/short distance daily driver, but for a long commute or traveling, the LX cars are certainly where it's at.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Stew

I'll say the weight is a guestimate, but yes, I definatly don't see the LX cars as being all out performance cars for he track, they can leave that to Chevy and Ford. I seriously hope that we get a Z28to go against the Boss. they way i see it, for me, a amaro or mustang would be a great weekend/short distance daily driver, but for a long commute or traveling, the LX cars are certainly where it's at.

The more I think about it, the more I'm almost glad MOPAR didn't try to pretend those cars were anything other than what they've said. Having that Merc' chassis under there is what makes those babies so sweet and enjoyable. It's completely competent for it's design and it just works. I can that What would be almost as nice is see MOPAR come out with a BOSS-fighter, too Don't ask me where that' supposed to come from, but I know that that would be cool.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Stew

Not THAT much lighter. The Mustang is just in a different league than the Camaro and Challnger IMHO, more of a Sportscar (neither of the other 2 are going to challenge an M3 on a roadcourse, sorry). Besides, you are comparing much larger cars that are more grand tourers and I really doubt anyone buying an SRT8 really cares about a roadcourse. IMHO, the only pony I would REALLY consider for roadcourse duties is the Boss 302 as even the ZL1 is going to be at least 4100-4200 pounds ( or more).

So if the Mustang GT can challenge the M3 on a roadcourse, and the Camaro SS can challenge the Mustang GT, wouldn't that therefore mean that a Camaro SS can challenge an M3?

And I would love to hear why you think the ZL1 might weigh more than a CTS-V

[Stew]

Originally Posted by radz28

The more I think about it, the more I'm almost glad MOPAR didn't try to pretend those cars were anything other than what they've said. Having that Merc' chassis under there is what makes those babies so sweet and enjoyable. It's completely competent for it's design and it just works. I can that What would be almost as nice is see MOPAR come out with a BOSS-fighter, too Don't ask me where that' supposed to come from, but I know that that would be cool.

I wonder if they will come out with a lighter/smaller RWD chasis now? The could use it across muliple brands from Dodge and Chrysler to Fiat and Alfa. hmmm.....

[Stew]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

So if the Mustang GT can challenge the M3 on a roadcourse, and the Camaro SS can challenge the Mustang GT, wouldn't that therefore mean that a Camaro SS can challenge an M3?

And I would love to hear why you think the ZL1 might weigh more than a CTS-V

I am not saying heavier, accourding to C&D the CTSV is 4260 pounds. Considering the Camaro is heavy as is, then add the Caddies engine, supercharger, suspension, etc, unless they fine a way to cut a lot of weight elsewhere, it is going to be lighter, but not much.

[cruznls]

The Charger has to get quicker, so you don't have to look at it...
The front end is horrible! Looks like a Truck Grille........
At least they listened when somebody said "Don't change the Challenger"

[radz28]

Originally Posted by cruznls

The Charger has to get quicker, so you don't have to look at it...
The front end is horrible! Looks like a Truck Grille........
At least they listened when somebody said "Don't change the Challenger"

SHEESH!!! Keep the gloves up, lol.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Stew

I am not saying heavier, accourding to C&D the CTSV is 4260 pounds. Considering the Camaro is heavy as is, then add the Caddies engine, supercharger, suspension, etc, unless they fine a way to cut a lot of weight elsewhere, it is going to be lighter, but not much.

Curb weight is listed as 4213 lbs on the CTS-V. So when I see you say "the ZL1 is '4100-4200 lbs (or more)' " I interpret that as you thinking it could weigh more than the CTS-V.

Over 4200 lbs is pretty much out of the question in my opinion. To start with, the V6 CTS is about 100 lbs heavier than the V6 Camaro. the drivetrain & suspension between those two cars is pretty much the same, just like in the CTS-V and ZL1. Plus, we know that GM has taken steps to reduce the weight of the ZL1, something which I never heard about on the CTS-V.

Another way to look at it, 4200+ lbs means the Camaro has managed to somehow pack on nearly 350 lbs, when about half that is a lot more typical if you compare the GT500 to the Mustang GT or the Z06 to the ZR1.

[truth411]

Originally Posted by Stew

Not THAT much lighter. The Mustang is just in a different league than the Camaro and Challnger IMHO, more of a Sportscar (neither of the other 2 are going to challenge an M3 on a roadcourse, sorry). Besides, you are comparing much larger cars that are more grand tourers and I really doubt anyone buying an SRT8 really cares about a roadcourse. IMHO, the only pony I would REALLY consider for roadcourse duties is the Boss 302 as even the ZL1 is going to be at least 4100-4200 pounds ( or more).

Not to take anything away from the mustang. But people aren't giving the camaro enough credit. Every single roadcourse test I have seen that compared the camaro SS vs the 2011 mustang GT laptimes, it has always been less than 1 sec. The big difference were not laptimes but the feel of the car. Road and track clicked the camaro SS just .1 sec off the mustangs laptime, car and driver lightning lap has the camaro just .9 sec off the mustang and that was on a 3 min. Roadcourse. It will be interesting to see how the 2012 camaro will perform with FE4 suspension. Though I still wish GM went with a square wheel/tire set up.

[newmoon]

Awesome!