gm pushing for higher gas tax

[FenwickHockey65]

This only has one solution.

Akerson. SHUT. UP.

That's all. Just shut up and do your job, quit talking about future products, quit talking about government policy, take pointers from Mark Reuss about what's okay to talk about and what isn't.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by CamaroSkooter

I think you're agreeing with me...

I don't think oil being a "limited" resource is motivation for the auto industry at all.

The auto industry should cater to their consumers, just like any other industry does. You build what the people want, and they'll buy it, en masse. So, until gas hits $10+ per gallon, the auto industry shouldn't have to worry about ultra-high fuel efficient vehicles until the consumers demand it.

And that's the basic principal that Akerson was touching on. If gas prices were at $10 or $15 per gallon, probably 90% of the American people would be demanding that the vehicles they buy should be ultra efficient. And the auto industry would be doing everything they could to meet that demand, otherwise they would be out of business.

But instead, the government is going to implement an arbitrary standard that all automobiles meet these rediculous efficiency ratings. So, now the consumer is going to be demanding a product that the industry will be unable to provide because it can't meet these restrictions. In effect, the government will indirectly put every car manufacturer out of business.



8cd03gro missed the point. No one is pushing for an added gas tax. This is just a theoretical debate on how an entire consumer base could be moved to demand only fuel efficient vehicles.

"You know what I'd rather have them do as gas is going to go down here now, we ought to just slap a 50-cent or a dollar tax on a gallon of gas,"

It's only theoretical because it hasn't happened. That's his position.

[fielderLS3]

Has anyone else noticed the schizophrenia of the government regulations on cars. At the same time they are demanding ridiculous and arbitrary CAFE standard, they are also demanding very difficult safety standards that are forcing cars to become heavier, and heavier, and heavier.

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

....What happens to all the families that can't afford to buy a new vehicle and instantly have to pay 25% more to commute to and from work and school every day?....

Obama was asked that same question by a woman at a speech/rally about a month ago. His response was to make fun of her, and then basically told her she could eat cake.

Originally Posted by CamaroSkooter

...In effect, the government will indirectly put every car manufacturer out of business...

That's the point. Run them out of business so they will be "forced" to bail them out. Then they are in control.

Remember the quote: "if it moves, tax it, if it keeps moving, regulate it, if it stops moving, subsidize it." That is EXACTLY what happened to the auto industry.

[Mr. Wyndham]

This.....is not new. Sorry to spoil the show for everyone...

Lutz has been pushing for a higher tax on gasoline to raise prices for years.

It's very simple...and makes perfect sense to me...

IF. IF...the gov't wants to make America's fleets more efficient, the most effective way to do that is to provide an incentive for buyers. In this case, the incentive is not being effected by high gas prices if you drive an efficient car. ("High" being relative to our past...it's still probably be cheap on the world stage....)

The thought is in direct response to the CAFE laws. It's a true shoot in the foot. The government regulates higher mileage vehicles -- BUT NOBODY BUYS THEM!!! Because when gas is cheap, nobody wants to buy smart...we all buy Suburbans for three-person families.

So the gov't is essentially ordering car manufacturers to build products there is no market for through the CAFE laws. The call for increased gas taxes is with the hopes they'll create that market.

But...back to the "IF". CAFE is stupid, and is the root cause of all of this. If you're angry with anybody it ought to be with that piece of poo regulation.

[Russo]

talk about manipulation of the market, lol.... so we deflate the currency, extend our military illegally, encourage entitlements for those who choose not to provide for themselves, borrow billions from China, and discourage small businesses by increasing yet another tax...

[coolman]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

This.....is not new. Sorry to spoil the show for everyone...

Lutz has been pushing for a higher tax on gasoline to raise prices for years.

It's very simple...and makes perfect sense to me...

IF. IF...the gov't wants to make America's fleets more efficient, the most effective way to do that is to provide an incentive for buyers. In this case, the incentive is not being effected by high gas prices if you drive an efficient car. ("High" being relative to our past...it's still probably be cheap on the world stage....)

The thought is in direct response to the CAFE laws. It's a true shoot in the foot. The government regulates higher mileage vehicles -- BUT NOBODY BUYS THEM!!! Because when gas is cheap, nobody wants to buy smart...we all buy Suburbans for three-person families.

So the gov't is essentially ordering car manufacturers to build products there is no market for through the CAFE laws. The call for increased gas taxes is with the hopes they'll create that market.

But...back to the "IF". CAFE is stupid, and is the root cause of all of this. If you're angry with anybody it ought to be with that piece of poo regulation.

I am really surprised that a site that is here because of the camaro appears to be supporting it's demise. Weather your talking about CAFE or taxing gas, it doesn't matter. All these things are an attempt to get rid of the the cars we love including our camaros so that we're stuck driving boring 50MPG boxes. Don't get me wrong these cars won't go away altogether ,but only the very rich will own them. There's a lot of oil out there to be had they just don't want to get because they make more money to keep supply down. When they can't get oil overseas any more then you can bet they will be drill here to keep business as usual. Keep prices high to maximize profit.

[Russo]

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by coolman

I am really surprised that a site that is here because of the camaro appears to be supporting it's demise. Weather your talking about CAFE or taxing gas, it doesn't matter. All these things are an attempt to get rid of the the cars we love including our camaros so that we're stuck driving boring 50MPG boxes. Don't get me wrong these cars won't go away altogether ,but only the very rich will own them. There's a lot of oil out there to be had they just don't want to get because they make more money to keep supply down. When they can't get oil overseas any more then you can bet they will be drill here to keep business as usual. Keep prices high to maximize profit.

No. You're missing my point.

The CAFE law is an attempt to "make our cars efficient" by regulating technological development. The assumption is that we can have our cake and eat it, too...auto engineers just need to work a little harder...(I hope you can sense the dripping sarcasm, there...). WE know what's going to really happen. Our cars will change; some may say for the better. I'm not addressing any of this at the moment, though.

Fact is, CAFE standards are a broken concept. A poor attempt at an honest idea.

The government's ultimate goal is to lower fuel consumption across our society. That's why there are energy tax credits for special windows/insulation, etc...we're just very very very close to the auto sector. If their goal is to be reached -- and I'm not saying it should be...there are plenty of alternative ideas out there --- but if the goal of reduced consumption is to be achieved, the only logical way to do it is by raising gas prices. We saw, unequivocally, our oil consumption DROP several points in 2008-2009 thanks to the gas hike. CAFE has produced no such results in its history.

I DON'T WANT to see laws and regs created to manipulate the driver, let alone the car companies and the consumer. But guess what?...nobody's complaining to the right people...and the auto companies best bet is to deflect the issue away from them. Lobbying for the repeal of CAFE would be bad voodoo...

So...

Would you rather buy not-so-fun cars at the drastically inflated prices necessary to reach ridiculous fuel economy standards of CAFE, or have direct control of your spending in the car you want, via higher gas taxes?

I'm just being realistic. I've written my representatives. I've told them what I think of CAFE, and how I expect them to approach the legislation, and I periodically restate my case. I've done my part, and I'm waiting for everyone else to do theirs. Until then, this is a call-it-as-I-see-it topic for me...

[PQ]

So CAFE cost the consumer extra money and leaves gas consumption the same.

A higher tax on gas cost the consumer extra money and LOWERS gas consumption.

Am I reading this right?

[coolman]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

No. You're missing my point.

The CAFE law is an attempt to "make our cars efficient" by regulating technological development. The assumption is that we can have our cake and eat it, too...auto engineers just need to work a little harder...(I hope you can sense the dripping sarcasm, there...). WE know what's going to really happen. Our cars will change; some may say for the better. I'm not addressing any of this at the moment, though.

Fact is, CAFE standards are a broken concept. A poor attempt at an honest idea.

The government's ultimate goal is to lower fuel consumption across our society. That's why there are energy tax credits for special windows/insulation, etc...we're just very very very close to the auto sector. If their goal is to be reached -- and I'm not saying it should be...there are plenty of alternative ideas out there --- but if the goal of reduced consumption is to be achieved, the only logical way to do it is by raising gas prices. We saw, unequivocally, our oil consumption DROP several points in 2008-2009 thanks to the gas hike. CAFE has produced no such results in its history.

I DON'T WANT to see laws and regs created to manipulate the driver, let alone the car companies and the consumer. But guess what?...nobody's complaining to the right people...and the auto companies best bet is to deflect the issue away from them. Lobbying for the repeal of CAFE would be bad voodoo...

So...

Would you rather buy not-so-fun cars at the drastically inflated prices necessary to reach ridiculous fuel economy standards of CAFE, or have direct control of your spending in the car you want, via higher gas taxes?

I'm just being realistic. I've written my representatives. I've told them what I think of CAFE, and how I expect them to approach the legislation, and I periodically restate my case. I've done my part, and I'm waiting for everyone else to do theirs. Until then, this is a call-it-as-I-see-it topic for me...

I completely agree with you on CAFE. It's worthless and impractical. I guess my rant is a totally different thread that would probably get closed pretty quickly. It's just that I'm getting tired of different people coming up with new ways to falsely inflate cost for their benefit in the name of some cause.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by PQ

So CAFE cost the consumer extra money and leaves gas consumption the same.

A higher tax on gas cost the consumer extra money and LOWERS gas consumption.

Am I reading this right?

According to history...Yes.

(Not the tax part...but the theoretical tax would cause higher prices like we saw several years ago)

Either way you look at it, the rate we're going, it's going to cost us more. :(

Originally Posted by coolman

I completely agree with you on CAFE. It's worthless and impractical. I guess my rant is a totally different thread that would probably get closed pretty quickly. It's just that I'm getting tired of different people coming up with new ways to falsely inflate cost for their benefit in the name of some cause.

Completely agreed as well. Every major regulatory issue I can think of all boils down a philosophical discussion...in short : we're always trying, foolishly, to fix what can't be fixed.

[CamaroSkooter]

I think the real problem is that the no one in government wants to strictly identify which issue they're trying to fix.

If their intention is to save the environment, they should plant some trees.

[Viral]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

So...

Would you rather buy not-so-fun cars at the drastically inflated prices necessary to reach ridiculous fuel economy standards of CAFE, or have direct control of your spending in the car you want, via higher gas taxes?

I think every single person in this thread should read and re-read Dragoneye's comment above because it should sum up this ENTIRE conversation on the gas tax hike comments by Akerson, Luts, Wagoner, Mulally and Ford Jr.

Let me restate it in a slightly different way. You get the choice of ONLY one option below:

1) CAFE standards stay intact - You get a fleet of Chevy Volts and Prius' at drastically inflated costs to choose from

2) Gas Tax increase - You get to keep buying cars like the Camaro, but gas will cost 50 cents more than it would have otherwise.

Now which one would you choose? This is why, when you have all the details that the CEO of GM has, a Gas Tax Increase is the lesser of two evils. It actually allows a Camaro or Mustang to continue being built in the future. CAFE does not.

Either way, you're GOING to pay more, but one way at least gives you cars you want to buy.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Viral

Either way, you're GOING to pay more, but one way at least gives you cars you want to buy.

AND could reduce gas consumption.