Bankruptcy !!

[PQ]

I don't have the answer and I'm running out of ideas. I don't know what to think of this situation any more. I feel more like the guy who made the sign below.

Back in 1929 Financial Crash it was said that some Wall Street Stockbrokers and Bankers JUMPED from their office windows and committed suicide when confronted with the news of their firms and clients financial ruin . . . Many people were said to almost feel a little sorry for them . . . . . .

In 2008 the attitude has changed somewhat:

[diddiyo]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

What?? I never said I wanted other countrys to help GM, and I certainly don't approve of the US gov't loaning money to any automaker but the Big 3....what are you talking about?

I didn't say you said you wanted other countries to help I'm just wondering what your opinion is as you apparently would do anything to keep GM from going ch.11

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by irpq11

I don't have the answer and I'm running out of ideas. I don't know what to think of this situation any more. I feel more like the guy who made the sign below.

Back in 1929 Financial Crash it was said that some Wall Street Stockbrokers and Bankers JUMPED from their office windows and committed suicide when confronted with the news of their firms and clients financial ruin . . . Many people were said to almost feel a little sorry for them . . . . . .

In 2008 the attitude has changed somewhat:

Your pic is hillarious!!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by diddiyo

I didn't say you said you wanted other countries to help I'm just wondering what your opinion is as you apparently would do anything to keep GM from going ch.11

I gave my opinion on that, I guess.

I'm of the opinion that Chapter 11 is FAR to risky a path for General Motors. They're NOT an airline, and they aren't like most other hurting companies in the country. 90% of the things people want to see done via bankruptcy can be done with fewer dollars through loans. That extra 10% just isn't worth it, imo. I'm confident that they can do what needs to be done on their own...

...and for all the ballyhooing about government intervention=evil since the first 700bil....I'm honestly surprised more people don't agree with me.


EDIT: Go to http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives...lity_plan.html
and hit the "plan itself" hyperlink. When the PDF pops up...follow the contents to the Bankruptcy section. For those interested in seeing GM file for Chpt 11...please read it. I don't expect you to change your minds, but it's worth a read from the horse's mouth.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

90% of the things people want to see done via bankruptcy can be done with fewer dollars through loans.

I agree BUT the key is getting everyone with a dog in the fight to come to terms with an agreement that will see them lose something they have now. Current negotiations with the union and the bond holders are not yielding the concessions needed.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Hylton

I agree BUT the key is getting everyone with a dog in the fight to come to terms with an agreement that will see them lose something they have now. Current negotiations with the union and the bond holders are not yielding the concessions needed.

Care to elaborate? I'm not very fluent regarding the bondholders. I only have a loose understanding of what they are to begin with (:(). As far as the unions, I'm at a loss as to what more can be done with them besides finalizing details of the VEBA....

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Care to elaborate? I'm not very fluent regarding the bondholders. I only have a loose understanding of what they are to begin with (:(). As far as the unions, I'm at a loss as to what more can be done with them besides finalizing details of the VEBA....

Dragoneye,

The Bondholders hold 27 Billion of debt and the Government and GM want them to accept 9 Billion in Equity and eat the other 18 Billion. The guys holding the Bonds are "Playing Chicken" and will not agree as they don't believe Congress will let GM file for Chapter 11. If GM did file for Chapter 11 and it resulted in a "fire sale" and liquidation then they would be at the top to receive any cash generated by the courts. I think some estimates are that they could get nearly that much from the sale of GM and its' components but I doubt that.

At this point the only thing that would get them to agree to such a bad deal would be the threat that they will lose it all or most of it if GM goes belly Up.

The UAW has made concessions for current workers but the retiree legacy costs have not really been dealt with and could be fairly reduced in many ways like terminating medical coverage at 65 and increasing monthly premiums. The UAW is not really coming around because they believe they have the support of Congress.

Like I said before, Chapter 11 would have already happened if Congress were not holding it up. However at some point I think Congress will have to back off and support a GM Chapter 11 filing (at least in appearance). As soon as GM makes an announcement that they are going Chapter 11 and Congress openly supports it and says there is no other option, watch how fast the UAW and the Creditors start making deals.

If Congress makes a back room deal with everyone to go Chapter 11 without the needed concessions and sets up a tax payer debtor financing package thru a puppet bank then the whole thing will be doomed to failure because GM will simply keep burning thru the cash and ultimately collapse taking all of our money with it. Congress has already stated that they will only assist if GM agrees to put a hold on future employment cuts and plant closings and protect the jobs of the UAW workers.

The "Committee" that is working with GM has no real authority and is a smoke screen to provide cover for Obama and Congress.

The future of GM depends entirely on whether Congress will do the right thing and let them do an honest Chapter 11 If not then I don't think they have much of a chance with their business being hamstrung without the needed concessions.

GM should never have taken the first dime, now they have been prostituted and have no control of their future.

BS Disclaimer
(The above is my opinion and may be seriously flawed and inaccurate.)

Steve

[rmyers]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

Dragoneye,

The Bondholders hold 27 Billion of debt and the Government and GM want them to accept 9 Billion in Equity and eat the other 18 Billion. The guys holding the Bonds are "Playing Chicken" and will not agree as they don't believe Congress will let GM file for Chapter 11. If GM did file for Chapter 11 and it resulted in a "fire sale" and liquidation then they would be at the top to receive any cash generated by the courts. I think some estimates are that they could get nearly that much from the sale of GM and its' components but I doubt that.

At this point the only thing that would get them to agree to such a bad deal would be the threat that they will lose it all or most of it if GM goes belly Up.

The UAW has made concessions for current workers but the retiree legacy costs have not really been dealt with and could be fairly reduced in many ways like terminating medical coverage at 65 and increasing monthly premiums. The UAW is not really coming around because they believe they have the support of Congress.

Like I said before, Chapter 11 would have already happened if Congress were not holding it up. However at some point I think Congress will have to back off and support a GM Chapter 11 filing (at least in appearance). As soon as GM makes an announcement that they are going Chapter 11 and Congress openly supports it and says there is no other option, watch how fast the UAW and the Creditors start making deals.

If Congress makes a back room deal with everyone to go Chapter 11 without the needed concessions and sets up a tax payer debtor financing package thru a puppet bank then the whole thing will be doomed to failure because GM will simply keep burning thru the cash and ultimately collapse taking all of our money with it. Congress has already stated that they will only assist if GM agrees to put a hold on future employment cuts and plant closings and protect the jobs of the UAW workers.

The "Committee" that is working with GM has no real authority and is a smoke screen to provide cover for Obama and Congress.

The future of GM depends entirely on whether Congress will do the right thing and let them do an honest Chapter 11 If not then I don't think they have much of a chance with their business being hamstrung without the needed concessions.

GM should never have taken the first dime, now they have been prostituted and have no control of their future.

BS Disclaimer
(The above is my opinion and may be seriously flawed and inaccurate.)

Steve

Do we see a pattern here? In previous years and decades those that had the ability to dramatically affect the long-term viability of GM ie...UAW, would not give too much as long as they knew someone else would blink. They gave what was only necessary to sustain failed business policies. Now the same people are holding out for our taxpayer dollars. Damn it I am sick and tired of where this is leading our country. They need to be allowed to fail. I don't appreciate my kids futures being gambled with because no one and I mean no one wants to take the bitter medicine and do what is right for our kids and grandkids. We have truly turned into a nation of f..king spoiled brats that are afraid to wake up in the morning and go out and make a way for ourselves.

Unbelievable......

[Zabo]

After reading all of this, can someone put it in plain english why GM hasn't filed? I say this for those of us here that are simply flabberghasted at what everyone is doing. Greed is dooming this country, rmyers said it best.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I gave my opinion on that, I guess.

I'm of the opinion that Chapter 11 is FAR to risky a path for General Motors. They're NOT an airline, and they aren't like most other hurting companies in the country. 90% of the things people want to see done via bankruptcy can be done with fewer dollars through loans. That extra 10% just isn't worth it, imo. I'm confident that they can do what needs to be done on their own...

...and for all the ballyhooing about government intervention=evil since the first 700bil....I'm honestly surprised more people don't agree with me.

Interesting, areas here where we vehemently disagree and others where we are in perfect lockstep.

Agreement? If GM decides to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection they may as well just file for Chapter 7 liquidation from the outset and avoid the drama. A Chapter 11 filing for GM will absolutely result in Chapter 7 bankruptcy. In order to complete Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization a company has to be able to maintain operations....that means buying parts, writing paychecks, and keeping assembly lines moving. For GM to accomplish the same would.will require a very large sum of money in the way of loans, realistically we are talking about more than a hundred billion dollars to complete the process, and at the moment bankruptcy loans on this magnitude are going to be nearly nonexistent for companies in the shape GM was in even two years ago.

Disagreement? GM cannot possibly save themselves at the moment. Frankly, GM is already bankrupt, they just don't seem to know it. Unless the government gifts this company a huge sum of money GM as we know them is almost certainly not long for this world.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Care to elaborate? I'm not very fluent regarding the bondholders. I only have a loose understanding of what they are to begin with (:(). As far as the unions, I'm at a loss as to what more can be done with them besides finalizing details of the VEBA....

Well War Eagle pretty much summed up the bondholder side of things. Only thing I would add there is that they are creditor number 1 right now which means they will get paid BEFORE the taxpayers gets their money back. The govt. is well aware of this and is looking for ways to get in front of them.

With respect to the UAW, there are still piles of money which they do not want to let go. One of the biggest is "freedom 48". What is this? It is the ability for a UAW worker to retire after 30 years and get full pension immediately. They do not have to wait until they are 65 like everyone else. They start making the pension the very next year. Who get's that? Not even government workers get that cushy deal. Conceptually, a retired UAW worker can be getting a pension for longer then he/she has been working! How is that sustainable for any organization?

Another issue are 'non-billable' jobs which exist but have nothing to do with actually building a car. Every GM factory still has dozens of union committeemen - the bargaining committee, shop committee, health and safety committee, and recreation committee who actually are paid by the car companies. In the past, these positions used to be carried out by workers who were also on the plant floor everyday. Now these are all unique jobs. Still lots of money on the table my freind!

[OUR72GTO]

So the job I REALLY want at age 28 is to to be a recreation committee worker for my 20 years, so I can get my full pension at 48 and have freedom to collect my medical benefits to 100.


Does that mean I get to arrange ALL the bowling?

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by OUR72GTO

So the job I REALLY want at age 28 is to to be a recreation committee worker for my 20 years, so I can get my full pension at 48 and have freedom to collect my medical benefits to 100.


Does that mean I get to arrange ALL the bowling?

Actually I corrected it. It is after 30 years so you would have to start at 18. Yes, if you started at 18, you would hit the jackpot at 48 until you die.

[OUR72GTO]

What's another 10 years when you hit the lotto and you get to improve your bowling average?