Do you all "hate" Chevrolet?

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Chevrolet does not build cars. General Motors does.

End of story.

How did you manage to make my long explanation so simple?

[fbodfather]

Very interesting thread - .......

........as an aside, I just finished proof-reading a booklet on the Chevrolet Centennial - a lot of interesting facts about Chevrolet and its history......when the book hits the stands, I'll send a note out - I think you'll find it fascinating.......

What most people don't realize is what Chevrolet represents to GM's bottom line -- historically and presently.......


Now -- to the comparison of "Chevrolet" and "GM" to the Sheens????

Three responses to that:

1.) ..........


2.) ..........................


3.) .......


whoever that was - GO STAND IN THE CORNER - and I'll let you know when you can come out.........

[Grandeos]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Chevrolet does not build cars. General Motors does.

End of story.

haha.

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Originally Posted by coolman

It this thread for real. I guess we shouldn't say ford, toyota, honda, chrysler and so on when talking about the other companies.

Maybe the Op would be happier if we typed out General Motors instead of typing GM which is a lot easier and everyone on the planet that is coherent knows what it means.

Come on

Thank you coolman. I know I can always count on you for some common sense. I nominate this thread as worst of the year.

[TOMS1SS]

Brand loyalty can only go so far. Lets look at the Chevrolet lineup and see whats there. I'll start with the obvious good; Camaro, Corvette, Equinox and light/heaav duty trucks. Now these are the good choices in the Chevy line-up and its obvious due to strong consumer sales and reviews.

The Cruze is nice but it costs WAY too much compared to its competitors. The Malibu is getting stale and is in need of a drastic update. The SUVs (body on frame) are nice but they are by no means fuel efficient enough to carry much interest going forward. Lets face it the Volt is way, way, WAY overpriced even with a government rebate. None of these vehicles are terrible but there are alternatives that are better in almost every way.

Now there are two unforgivable eyesores in the Chevy lineup and IMO. Lets start with the old W-body, the Impala. Is there any reason for this car still exist outside of rental fleet sales? Seriously this is the worst full-size car available today and it doesn't even sell that well anymore. I can't believe GM won't give us a rear-drive Zeta to compete with the Taurus, Charger and 300 its not the development costs haven't been paid. This brings me to the Aveo....

The Aveo is infamous to anyone who knows anything about car quality. The Aveo build quality that I have experience is worse than cars that were built 20 years ago. The Aveo is underpowered, poorly equipped, uncomfortable and ugly as sin. This isn't helped by the fact that the Aveo is a Daewoo rebadge, everyone knows Daewoo is junk. GM went as far to replace all Daewoo badged cars as Chevy's for obvious reasons. The Aveo name itself is being rebadged as the Sonic just so US consumers won't have that negative Aveo taste in their mouth when potentially buying the car.

Now in the case of my Camaro, Chevy and GM offered something that I couldn't pass on in the 2010 model. The 2010 Camaro is dynamically better in every single way compared to its 2010 competitors and was an easy buy for me. However, when it came to buy a sub-compact for my new job earlier this year as much as I tried my hate for the Aveo was just as strong as ever. I wanted so badly to be a loyal GM consumer but the Aveo just couldn't pass, especially compared to the Fiesta I did buy. Had this been a compact or mid-size I might have bought a Cruze or Malibu as they at least offer something competitive.

Now I'll say this about Chevy, its all GM no matter what division you go with. GM has been platform sharing since the 60s and there wasn't any real difference between platform siblings until recently, in fact this is largely what killed Pontiac's customer base. At least now Buick offers higher content than the Chevy line and hopefully that will last. All praise and negativity towards any GM brand model should start and end with the company and not the division. At least GM vehicles as a whole are a lot better and more competitive in today's market. Every automaker has good and bad vehicles, its up to the consumer to pick the right one. Like I said brand loyalty only goes so far, buy the best car....

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Fearer2010SS

Brand loyalty can only go so far. Lets look at the Chevrolet lineup and see whats there. I'll start with the obvious good; Camaro, Corvette, Equinox and light/heaav duty trucks. Now these are the good choices in the Chevy line-up and its obvious due to strong consumer sales and reviews.

The Cruze is nice but it costs WAY too much compared to its competitors. The Malibu is getting stale and is in need of a drastic update. The SUVs (body on frame) are nice but they are by no means fuel efficient enough to carry much interest going forward. Lets face it the Volt is way, way, WAY overpriced even with a government rebate. None of these vehicles are terrible but there are alternatives that are better in almost every way.

Now there are two unforgivable eyesores in the Chevy lineup and IMO. Lets start with the old W-body, the Impala. Is there any reason for this car still exist outside of rental fleet sales? Seriously this is the worst full-size car available today and it doesn't even sell that well anymore. I can't believe GM won't give us a rear-drive Zeta to compete with the Taurus, Charger and 300 its not the development costs haven't been paid. This brings me to the Aveo....

The Aveo is infamous to anyone who knows anything about car quality. The Aveo build quality that I have experience is worse than cars that were built 20 years ago. The Aveo is underpowered, poorly equipped, uncomfortable and ugly as sin. This isn't helped by the fact that the Aveo is a Daewoo rebadge, everyone knows Daewoo is junk. GM went as far to replace all Daewoo badged cars as Chevy's for obvious reasons. The Aveo name itself is being rebadged as the Sonic just so US consumers won't have that negative Aveo taste in their mouth when potentially buying the car.

Now in the case of my Camaro, Chevy and GM offered something that I couldn't pass on in the 2010 model. The 2010 Camaro is dynamically better in every single way compared to its 2010 competitors and was an easy buy for me. However, when it came to buy a sub-compact for my new job earlier this year as much as I tried my hate for the Aveo was just as strong as ever. I wanted so badly to be a loyal GM consumer but the Aveo just couldn't pass, especially compared to the Fiesta I did buy. Had this been a compact or mid-size I might have bought a Cruze or Malibu as they at least offer something competitive.

Now I'll say this about Chevy, its all GM no matter what division you go with. GM has been platform sharing since the 60s and there wasn't any real difference between platform siblings until recently, in fact this is largely what killed Pontiac's customer base. At least now Buick offers higher content than the Chevy line and hopefully that will last. All praise and negativity towards any GM brand model should start and end with the company and not the division. At least GM vehicles as a whole are a lot better and more competitive in today's market. Every automaker has good and bad vehicles, its up to the consumer to pick the right one. Like I said brand loyalty only goes so far, buy the best car....

Excuse me?

Cruze is priced right in line with its competitors. The 2012 Focus which is just as nice and raises the bar in the segment just as much as Cruze is priced extremely similarly to it. You get what you pay for. Either pony up the money for what is arguably one of the best compacts in the segment, or cheap out and buy a Corolla with cheap materials, shoddy workmanship, and questionable quality. As gas prices get higher and higher, the compact segment isn't going to be looked to as cheap compromises anymore, Americans are going to start demanding compacts with the same amenities found in more expensive cars, and Cruze delivers.

The GMT-900 SUVs are still leading the full-size SUV segment in sales. Fuel efficiency? If you haven't noticed, the competition isn't exactly fuel efficient either.

Volt is the first of a new line of technology. When was the last time you bought a new state-of-the-art computer and paid $200 for it?

Impala doesn't sell well anymore? Methinks you need to do some research. I agree that the W-body is ancient and completely outdated, but it still sells in decent numbers, even if the majority is fleet.

Aveo is done in the US. Sonic is ten times the subcompact Aveo was.

[Sax1031]

I like the Corvette a lot. I am admittedly a Ford person also.

[TOMS1SS]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Excuse me?

Cruze is priced right in line with its competitors. The 2012 Focus which is just as nice and raises the bar in the segment just as much as Cruze is priced extremely similarly to it. You get what you pay for. Either pony up the money for what is arguably one of the best compacts in the segment, or cheap out and buy a Corolla with cheap materials, shoddy workmanship, and questionable quality. As gas prices get higher and higher, the compact segment isn't going to be looked to as cheap compromises anymore, Americans are going to start demanding compacts with the same amenities found in more expensive cars, and Cruze delivers.

The GMT-900 SUVs are still leading the full-size SUV segment in sales. Fuel efficiency? If you haven't noticed, the competition isn't exactly fuel efficient either.

Volt is the first of a new line of technology. When was the last time you bought a new state-of-the-art computer and paid $200 for it?

Impala doesn't sell well anymore? Methinks you need to do some research. I agree that the W-body is ancient and completely outdated, but it still sells in decent numbers, even if the majority is fleet.

Aveo is done in the US. Sonic is ten times the subcompact Aveo was.

Yes the GMT-900 SUVs are still the top selling vehicles in the segment. Problem the whole segment is dying as a whole because of poor fuel efficiency. Don't get me wrong I love the GMT-900s but its easier to own Crossover SUV these days.

The Volt like it or not is a glorified hybrid. I'm not saying its a bad car but it isn't the answer that everyone was expecting it to be. Understandably the price of the Volt is driven by R&D but that doesn't give ME a reason to pick conventional gasoline sub-compact for thousands less. I don't lease cars, I buy them. In my case the 41k MSRP price of the Volt is way too high. The whole point of this car is to save money on gas. Given that the hybrid powertrains in these cars last generally on 8 years, 100,000 miles where are my savings coming from? I'm better off buying sub-compact, I might spend more money in gas but I'll save thousands over the MSRP of the Volt. Don't get me wrong the same problem applies to the Leaf, Prius, CR-Z and hybrids in between. I guess if looking to lease a Volt might be up your alley.

Seriously are you going to defend the Impala? I don't have the numbers right in front of me but I know a large portion if not most Impala sales go to fleet services. If your think fleet sales are an indicator of a class competitive car, you and I have different concepts of makes a vehicle good. These may be sales but does it mean the Impala is a good car, no? The reason the Impala (W-body) is still around is because the tooling costs have bought and paid for eons ago and GM is making a mint on everyone they sell. Its the same concept as the Panther platform with the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis and Town Car all these years.

[TOMS1SS]

Originally Posted by Fearer2010SS

Yes the GMT-900 SUVs are still the top selling vehicles in the segment. Problem the whole segment is dying as a whole because of poor fuel efficiency. Don't get me wrong I love the GMT-900s but its easier to own Crossover SUV these days.

The Volt like it or not is a glorified hybrid. I'm not saying its a bad car but it isn't the answer that everyone was expecting it to be. Understandably the price of the Volt is driven by R&D but that doesn't give ME a reason to pick conventional gasoline sub-compact for thousands less. I don't lease cars, I buy them. In my case the 41k MSRP price of the Volt is way too high. The whole point of this car is to save money on gas. Given that the hybrid powertrains in these cars last generally on 8 years, 100,000 miles where are my savings coming from? I'm better off buying sub-compact, I might spend more money in gas but I'll save thousands over the MSRP of the Volt. Don't get me wrong the same problem applies to the Leaf, Prius, CR-Z and hybrids in between. I guess if looking to lease a Volt might be up your alley.

Seriously are you going to defend the Impala? I don't have the numbers right in front of me but I know a large portion if not most Impala sales go to fleet services. If your think fleet sales are an indicator of a class competitive car, you and I have different concepts of makes a vehicle good. These may be sales but does it mean the Impala is a good car, no? The reason the Impala (W-body) is still around is because the tooling costs have bought and paid for eons ago and GM is making a mint on everyone they sell. Its the same concept as the Panther platform with the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis and Town Car all these years.

I forgot the Cruze. The Cruze is a nice car that starts at a nice price at around 18k. However to get anything of substance in the Cruze the MSRP gets close to 26k really fast. When I was looking I really liked the Cruze, but it was too overpriced for my tastes. I could have a car that has more standard features and more power in a mid-size. If the Focus is really going this route also doesn't it kinda make the compact segment overpriced? I paid only 32k for my 1SS and I'll tell you this, they may not accomplish the same thing but I'm getting a lot more car for the money in my Camaro.

[FenwickHockey65]

The powertrain in the Volt will last far longer than 10 years. The battery is designed to retain maximum charge until that point, then will start dropping off little by little. And buying a new car is never the answer to saving money on gas, the math has been worked out more than one occasion on this site.

I said I agreed with you about the Impala being outdated, but I know for a fact that many of its retail sales go towards people who want a simple family sedan without all the complicated bells and whistles of newer cars. Those people still make up a substantial portion of the buying market. That being said, the Impala desperately needs an update to bring it in line with the rest of the Chevrolet lineup, but at least it is getting a new powertrain to hold it over until the EpII model is ready to go.

[TOMS1SS]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

The powertrain in the Volt will last far longer than 10 years. The battery is designed to retain maximum charge until that point, then will start dropping off little by little. And buying a new car is never the answer to saving money on gas, the math has been worked out more than one occasion on this site.

I said I agreed with you about the Impala being outdated, but I know for a fact that many of its retail sales go towards people who want a simple family sedan without all the complicated bells and whistles of newer cars. Those people still make up a substantial portion of the buying market. That being said, the Impala desperately needs an update to bring it in line with the rest of the Chevrolet lineup, but at least it is getting a new powertrain to hold it over until the EpII model is ready to go.

Here's hoping the 3.6L V-6 direct injection is a start. 304 horsepower in a Impala with its low content curb weight = sleeper car. Heck with rebates it might be something that can be had around 20k? It would be like the SS models with the LS4 a couple years ago sans a couple hundred pounds in curb weight.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Fearer2010SS

I forgot the Cruze. The Cruze is a nice car that starts at a nice price at around 18k. However to get anything of substance in the Cruze the MSRP gets close to 26k really fast. When I was looking I really liked the Cruze, but it was too overpriced for my tastes. I could have a car that has more standard features and more power in a mid-size. If the Focus is really going this route also doesn't it kinda make the compact segment overpriced? I paid only 32k for my 1SS and I'll tell you this, they may not accomplish the same thing but I'm getting a lot more car for the money in my Camaro.

The entire segment is moving this way. Like I said, Americans no longer view compacts as throwaway cars. They want the same features found in their bigger cars in their smaller cars. Those features don't come free.

$26k is the only way to get anything of substance? I just built a fully-loaded Cruze LTZ/RS with every single option box checked (even the dumb ones like a cargo net) and it topped out at $27,595. I'm fairly sure you can get a decently-equipped Cruze for much less than $26k.

Once again, you get what you pay for. Cruze and Focus are both arguably best-in-class. The list of standard features in both cars blows the competition away.

[el ess A]

Back to the original topic:

I'm not understanding why rez somehow gets the notion that we all don't chime in with "Chevrolet" that we somehow disrespect the Chevy name. That sort of bugs me a little. If you ever use the term "my significant other", "my husband/wife" or "my kids"...why not prattle off each of their names? Are you not proud of them? I'd worry more about how world events are impacting the ever-increasing ownership costs of my car rather than what name I use to refer to it.

GM used to be the overseeing landlord of sorts. The umbrella that housed almost-independent companies. Each tried to market their own niche under that umbrella. Some parts were shared along with body designations (A-body, F-body, etc.), but many drivetrains, as well as body styles were unique to the divisions. Some divisions even had their "own" foundries.

Restructuring has streamlined many R&D efforts to exist at the corporate level vs. individual divisions. The centipede-like org chart that GM once was now has less layers to the decision-making. The divisions used to have some inter-rivalry going to some degree almost constantly, which obviously didn't help GM as a whole.

Building multi-brands at one assembly plant is nothing new to GM, but finally streamlining the brands to a more world-economically viable production platform and focusing more on what's really important is. And it seems to be working.

GM is now synonymous with Chevrolet/Buick/GMC/Cadillac. They have a flavor for every price range it seems, and it seems they have used their resources to better equip themselves for quality oversight and listening to their customer base that was severely lacking in years past. Not that GM didn't want build the best cars, it's just the layers of red tape that invariably came with simply being an "umbrella" company over many nearly free-standing divisions of sorts made it tough to do things right.

I'm proud to be a GM owner. But Chevrolet means a lot to GM and its customer base, and the bowtie emblem is the nearly world-recognizable icon of Chevrolet. No words need printing. After all, Superman just had a big S on his shirt. A superhero needs no mere words spelled out. Just a symbol- like the bowtie.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Do I "hate" Chevy? Absolutely NOT! I'm proud of what Chevrolet represents, and IS. And the vehicles that wear that name will forever be remembered.

However, many years ago Chevy was completely independant in terms of powertrains and vehicles....but not anymore. It'd be delusional to ignore the "GM" side of things when talking about product.

For example: GM decided to build and produce the ZL1. The Camaro team (Chevy), designed and engineered it (which is most of the work)...but ultimately, it was the directors and top management of the corporation that gave the car a green-light.

And when advanced technologies are developed, like the dual-mode hybrid system, or the LS-series of engines...they're used across most (if not all) brands, so I just refer to "GM" when talking about those.

(I also think it's kinda cool to talk about "The General"..... )