GAS PRICES!

[01pewterz28]

Originally Posted by snkeyes069

I know I'm repeating myself, but ignore the doomsday prediction of $5/gallon in 2012. It was made by the former head of Shell (a man with a vested interest in high oil prices). The cooler heads are saying 10 years. Here's the full CNN report.

At the rate we are going $5 does not seem too far off

Example

Christmas Day gas here in Central Florida was $3.03 a gal, yesterday was $3.07 a gal, this morning $3.09 a gal. At the rate of increase we will be well into $4.00 a gal by May (as most have predicted).

Sean

[Markwrench]

Hmmm....since we as a country represent less than 10% of the worlds population and use something like 40% of the worlds oil production we have only oursleves to blame. Fear is the driving factor in economic recovery. I don't even think I knew what the EPA estimates were on my 2SS until I got her home, but I did know premium gas was called for. For me its a warm weather toy so fuel cost isn't a big issue and I have an old 37 mpg Tercel as a fuel sipper. Does anyone really get 30 mpg out of the LT?

[metthem]

I knew I was getting a fricken Camaro, who am I to complain about the cost of gas? I didn't even look at that info on the sticker, I didn't care, I'm getting a sports car. I only looked after sumone at work asked sarcastically, "what kinda fuel mileage you get in that thing?" Like when some guy at the gas station said, "that's a nice looking car, how's it gonna do in the snow?" I said, it gonna run like a sled. I don't care, it's a Camaro

[01pewterz28]

Originally Posted by Markwrench

Does anyone really get 30 mpg out of the LT?

I average 29.8 to 30.6 mpg as a daily driver just depends on traffic.

[cab2g]

Originally Posted by Steppenwolf1980

Well, I think that you don't have to only look at the oil companies alone. There is a huge difference in European and American way of thinking. See, you guys are used to see a car as a naturally and cheap part of your everyday life. A new car costs shit in the United States, so does the petrol (or at least it used to cost shit until a couple of months). The reason for that is that your government won't earn much money with sold cars and gas, but on the other hand they don't need more money, because they don't have to spend it for their citizens like here (e.g. you have to health insure yourself, which is something completely unimaginable over here. When I get hurt, I go to the hospital or the doctor and get cured, without ever seeing a bill for that).

What I am trying to say is that we here also see the car as a necessary part of everyday life, but we never felt it to be cheap. As BeeHappy already told, for the price that you pay for a brandnew LT2 Camaro in the U.S., you'll get here only a tiny grannycar or a small Korean vehicle... Also, there are heavy road taxes here (I pay about 1600 dollars a year for the Camaro), insurance (about 2000 dollars a year full comprehensive cover) and then the gas price. Driving a car isn't cheap anymore and this isn't going to change.

Maybe you guys in the United States are now at the borderline to realize that, too. I understand that it is very hard to accept such drastic changes that affect your prosperity, but since oil is going to go out of stock in a couple of decades, the increasing prices are just a normal result of capitalism. I guess the big problem in the U.S. is not only the change of mind at the population, but also having an alternative to using your car. The public transport's really kind of retarded in most of the U.S. cities, most people don't have a choice but using their own cars to get to work or elsewhere. That whole we-have-no-money-but-gas-is-getting-more-expensive-thing is for sure nothing to have solved within a year or two, right?

You're right, everything is expensive. If we were to improve public transportation to where it needs to be for people to use their cars less, the govt would have to subsidize it for years maybe even decades before enough people used it for the system to actually be self-sustaining (if ever). That's not even including the initial cost to build better train systems and road systems. It may never even work in the US like it does in Europe, ever heard of the suburban sprawl? Ever notice how much landmass we have per person compared to Europe? That's a lot of long train tracks and roads to be built/improved. Cheap cars made it too easy to travel long distances, so people can now live 50 miles (83km) from work. But to find a public transportation route to get to your job 50 miles away can be a pretty daunting task.

Our country has spent a lot of money on other things such as defense, which I agree we need, but you can't have everything. If you want everything, you're going to have to pay for everything literally. Believe me, with our culture of spending before you have it and racking up debt, more taxes would bankrupt millions of people because they have so much debt. It's sad but true. Let's not even touch the healthcare issue as social security and medicare/medicaid is the second largest source of govt spending behind defense already, just imagine what our taxes would be like if the govt paid for healthcare, public transportation, education reform, AND our ridiculous national debt.

I love our country, but we're in a sticky situation. The first priority should be to reduce the spending deficit either by actually cutting spending where we can or actually raising taxes. But as I mentioned, millions of people can't afford a tax increase. I have little mercy for the ultra rich though, you can tax them We need a major culture change, I agree, but not regarding our cars, regarding our spending before we have it. But that's just me.

[jhyland87]

I CAN get 26.5mpg per a tank.. but the way I drive, I average 18.1

[Beyond Limits]

Originally Posted by KeepItGreasey

You would have to judge all the states differently as well. We have a BUTTLOAD of refineries in Los Angeles, and some of the highest prices? We don't even get a break because it pretty much costs nothing to transport gasoline to local stations... compared to supplying a state like Wyoming with gasoline.

You have to put it in perspective as well. The gasoline that refinery is making might not even be legal to sell in California. The reason for this is that the CARB has mandated the use of a reformulated gasoline that exceeds the federal requirements for clean gasoline formulations. The gas that is sold in say Wyoming is actually illegal to sell in California. So because of this there are far fewer refineries making CARB gas then federal gas, which results in higher baseline prices and prices that are far more susceptible to market volatility.

And now just for fun, even if they were making CARB gas, that refinery cannot ship gas to the gas station accross the street. It has to put it in the pipeline and pipe it to a transfer station. At the transfer station it is pumped into trucks for local delivery. The reason for this is two fold. The first is that all of the gasoline that leaves a refinery is actually a stock blend that meets the specific formulation requirements (CARB or federal) (for a given formulation the gas that leaves from the valero and chevron refineries is for all intensive purposes identical). All of the special additives (think V-Power, Techron, etc.) that all of the premium gasoline blends market are actually added to the gas at the transfer station when the gasoline is actually pumped into trucks for local delivery. The second is various AQMD requirements in place that govern bulk transfer of fuel. Basically most refineries (for southern California at least) operate in an area that does not allow them to bulk transfer fuel into a truck for local delivery because they are not permitted for it (The logic driving this is the same idiotic logic that is behind the removal of the retention clips on the fuel nozzles at all of the gas stations).

So as dumb as it sounds it basically costs the same to supply gasoline to a gas station right across the street as it does to a station in Wyoming (actually it probably costs less to deliver to Wyoming because the local transport operators I am sure have far less costs involved then someone running a fuel rig in California).

Any way you slice it though it sucks...

[2010SLVRBULIT]

$2.80 for regular(85) around here..

[ddunerider]

SUPER!! 3.65 a gal......

[01pewterz28]

Originally Posted by oldfriend

OH , YOU ARE THE ONE THAT STILL LISTEN TO THAT ONE !!!!: sm0:

No but it does not take a rocket scientist to see & understand where we are heading.
December 2009 $2.58 a gal
December 2010 $3.00+ a gal

Crude Oil price per barrel $44.60 (Dec 30, 2008)
Crude Oil price per barrel $46.34 (Dec 29, 2009)
Crude Oil Price per barrel $89.51 (Dec 24, 2010)
(OPEC cuts production for 2010 and 2011 less production plus more investor speculation = skyrocketing oil & gas prices).

We did this rodeo back in 2007 when gas prices reached $4.00+ a gal we are already higher at this point vs. 2007.

They aleardy expect gas to be close to $3.50 by the end of Jan early Feb then the oil refineries will have to switch over to the summer blend which prices always go up and boom we are on the brink of $4.00 a gal add the spring and summer travel boom $4.00+ add a few bad storms in the gulf next summer and we are at $5.00 a gal by the end of the year early 2012.

[shockandawe]

Their predicting gas will be $5.00 a gallon by the end of 2012.

[KeepItGreasey]

Originally Posted by Steppenwolf1980

Well, I think that you don't have to only look at the oil companies alone. There is a huge difference in European and American way of thinking. See, you guys are used to see a car as a naturally and cheap part of your everyday life. A new car costs shit in the United States, so does the petrol (or at least it used to cost shit until a couple of months). The reason for that is that your government won't earn much money with sold cars and gas, but on the other hand they don't need more money, because they don't have to spend it for their citizens like here (e.g. you have to health insure yourself, which is something completely unimaginable over here. When I get hurt, I go to the hospital or the doctor and get cured, without ever seeing a bill for that).

What I am trying to say is that we here also see the car as a necessary part of everyday life, but we never felt it to be cheap. As BeeHappy already told, for the price that you pay for a brandnew LT2 Camaro in the U.S., you'll get here only a tiny grannycar or a small Korean vehicle... Also, there are heavy road taxes here (I pay about 1600 dollars a year for the Camaro), insurance (about 2000 dollars a year full comprehensive cover) and then the gas price. Driving a car isn't cheap anymore and this isn't going to change.

Maybe you guys in the United States are now at the borderline to realize that, too. I understand that it is very hard to accept such drastic changes that affect your prosperity, but since oil is going to go out of stock in a couple of decades, the increasing prices are just a normal result of capitalism. I guess the big problem in the U.S. is not only the change of mind at the population, but also having an alternative to using your car. The public transport's really kind of retarded in most of the U.S. cities, most people don't have a choice but using their own cars to get to work or elsewhere. That whole we-have-no-money-but-gas-is-getting-more-expensive-thing is for sure nothing to have solved within a year or two, right?

That sounds like talk from someone who either doesn't want to do anything about it... or is making money off the situation.

But I think one of the biggest misconceptions is people on here thinking that Americans give a rat's tuckus about what people pay in Europe or Canada.

Cars are a big part of our culture. We have always had relatively cheap gasoline. We like to travel in our cars. We like to go off-roading. We like fast cars. We've been making cars for a century now.

Do any of you older guys remember what the world was like before those people living in that complete and utter hell hole in the middle of the desert realized that they were squatting over an underground ocean of black liquid gold?

Originally Posted by mikeSS

that is true. but i just hate the fact that we have soooooo much untaped oil here and in other places around the world that we just dont use. i realize that drilling for more oil is only going to help us for so many years. but right now in the world economy we need cheap oil to fully recover. and the world needs us to recover. we are one of the top leaders of the world and we can not fail. we just got tax beaks, if we had cheap oil that would be even better for us and the world

I don't know about you, but I have never been a part of gasoline rationing. Prices will skyrocket, but we really aren't running out of gasoline. If you believe what they tell you, then I can understand why you're upset about the lack of local drilling.

Are we running out of oil? I don't think so. Not too long ago, the middle easterns cut back on production and induced a worldwide shortage, therein raising the price of crude per barrel because the supply was low.

And then we have the "speculators". They can blow me - that's all I have to say about that.

I want to pay the price for gasoline based on the price the crude was purchased at... not based on tomorrow's forecasted price of crude for gasoline that has already been refined.

Draw up a chart showing supply, demand, and cost... those lines are going to be all over the place, and not in the order it should be if you understand economics.

Originally Posted by metthem

I knew I was getting a fricken Camaro, who am I to complain about the cost of gas? I didn't even look at that info on the sticker, I didn't care, I'm getting a sports car. I only looked after sumone at work asked sarcastically, "what kinda fuel mileage you get in that thing?" Like when some guy at the gas station said, "that's a nice looking car, how's it gonna do in the snow?" I said, it gonna run like a sled. I don't care, it's a Camaro

So a millionaire wouldn't have the right to complain, just because he can afford it?

This isn't an issue of the Camaro's gas mileage. This is about being ripped off and not being able to do much about it.

Originally Posted by 01pewterz28

No but it does not take a rocket scientist to see & understand where we are heading.
December 2009 $2.58 a gal
December 2010 $3.00+ a gal

Crude Oil price per barrel $44.60 (Dec 30, 2008)
Crude Oil price per barrel $46.34 (Dec 29, 2009)
Crude Oil Price per barrel $89.51 (Dec 24, 2010)
(OPEC cuts production for 2010 and 2011 less production plus more investor speculation = skyrocketing oil & gas prices).

We did this rodeo back in 2007 when gas prices reached $4.00+ a gal we are already higher at this point vs. 2007.

They aleardy expect gas to be close to $3.50 by the end of Jan early Feb then the oil refineries will have to switch over to the summer blend which prices always go up and boom we are on the brink of $4.00 a gal add the spring and summer travel boom $4.00+ add a few bad storms in the gulf next summer and we are at $5.00 a gal by the end of the year early 2012.

Remember how stable gas prices were 10-30 years ago? The price never fluctuated by as much as $0.50 in a year because of product changeovers. This is just an excuse.

I'll say it again... I realllllly want to get a job at a local refinery.

[snkeyes069]

Originally Posted by shockandawe

Their predicting gas will be $5.00 a gallon by the end of 2012.

Again...this is a prediction made by the ex-head of Shell. Only one guy with a vested interest in high oil prices said $5. Every damn news agency picked up on this lunatic's quote and ran with it. A couple years ago Bin Laden was quoted as saying that $144/barrel oil was undervalued. Just because one @$$#%# says something ridiculous to further their own personal agenda, it doesn't make it reality.

Originally Posted by 01pewterz28

No but it does not take a rocket scientist to see & understand where we are heading.
December 2009 $2.58 a gal
December 2010 $3.00+ a gal

Crude Oil price per barrel $44.60 (Dec 30, 2008)
Crude Oil price per barrel $46.34 (Dec 29, 2009)
Crude Oil Price per barrel $89.51 (Dec 24, 2010)
(OPEC cuts production for 2010 and 2011 less production plus more investor speculation = skyrocketing oil & gas prices).

We did this rodeo back in 2007 when gas prices reached $4.00+ a gal we are already higher at this point vs. 2007.

They aleardy expect gas to be close to $3.50 by the end of Jan early Feb then the oil refineries will have to switch over to the summer blend which prices always go up and boom we are on the brink of $4.00 a gal add the spring and summer travel boom $4.00+ add a few bad storms in the gulf next summer and we are at $5.00 a gal by the end of the year early 2012.

Your dataset is very incomplete. We can't draw a conclusion based on one price per one day a year.

By the same logic, the sun is going away! No seriously, let me show you!
6/21/2008: 16 hours of sunlight
9/21/2009: 12 hours of sunlight
12/21/2010: 8 hours of sunlight
By the time 2013 ends, we'll be in complete darkness!!! Run for your lives!! WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!!!

/sarcasm

Point being, the value of energy fluctuates (most of the fluctuations were not represented by your dataset). $4.25/gal gas will most likely send the US into another recession (a similar increase would have the same effect in other nations). Even manipulated, the market cannot handle $5 gas. Not now, not in 24 months, and most likely not for a decade (see the article I posted earlier).

[blk96gt]

Originally Posted by mikeSS

that is true. but i just hate the fact that we have soooooo much untaped oil here and in other places around the world that we just dont use. i realize that drilling for more oil is only going to help us for so many years. but right now in the world economy we need cheap oil to fully recover. and the world needs us to recover. we are one of the top leaders of the world and we can not fail. we just got tax beaks, if we had cheap oil that would be even better for us and the world

I don't think you realize the cost of drilling and producing many of the crude oil deposits that are in the US. We have drilled and produced most of the easily accessible oil. What's left is the stuff that takes a significant amount of effort, time and money. The only reason these wells are economically feasible to drill are because of the increase in the cost of crude.