Nissan 370z vs. Camaro SS vs BMW 135i

[GatorBlue371]

Originally Posted by MrIcky

R&T for BMW 135= .91 skidpad, 70.6 slalom. (4.8 0-60)
R&T preproduction (not full roadtest) 370z = .97 skidpad, 71.4 slalom (5.1 0-60).

My poor little Cobalt only has .92 and 70.0 slalom.... Which is completely irrelevant....

those numbers stand fairly consistant for the 135i but remember MotorTrend/Car and Driver recorded a 4.7-4.9 0-60 time for the Z

[MrIcky]

Originally Posted by littlecammi

The problem is that all things have not been equal for years, since the car magazines have done too good a job of convincing the American public that imports are good and American cars are bad. And that poisoning by the press is part of the reason that a Porsche or BMW is someone's dream car instead of an American car (like a Z06 or GT500).

Again, I agree with that in the commuter car arena. However in the cars as objects of Passion portion of the world, I'm going to give you an example: http://www.porsche.com/usa/eventsand...ry/racingcars/

When I was in High School in the 80's, I'd be look at cars like the 959 with my mouth gaping open. America's investment in racing and performance has been VERY inconsistant. That's America's fault, not the magazine's. Really only Corvette has been around as a halo car with any consistancy, and Corvette lovers are just as passionate about their Vettes as Porsche lovers are about their Porsches. Vettes get great press too, at least they do when the Vettes are good like they have been for a while. Did you read the press the Bullitt version Mustang got? It was great. Put some passion in the car and you get good reviews and you get rabid fans. Lose passion and focus and you'll spend a lot of time and money getting it back.

I can't really personally connect with the GT-R, and I don't know it's history. However I know there is a contingent who have been dreaming about GT-Rs since they were early teens. I also know the GT-R used to be born and bred for racing. They're more GT than R now it seems, but that R is important to a group of people and more power to them. Again, that's not the magazine's fault-that's Nissan's for getting a good tap on a halo car (and a PS2 game as well I believe).


*edit*
"If people had a more realistic view of how the M3 may compare to other cars like the SS, etc. then maybe they would be less inclined to pay so much for them. If they continue to think that everything from detroit is JUNK and that everything from BMW is PERFECT, then it seems logical they would pay 2x as much for a BMW. If the secret that BMW is slightly better in some areas and slightly worse in others gets out then maybe the price people are willing to pay for one will be less."

Well they can't compare it to the SS, because the SS isn't on the market. The only problem with your theory above is there really hasn't been a slightly better, slightly worse dynamic with anything American until the CTS. Now the CTS is on the 10 best list 2 years running and the winner last year. The BMW really is the complete package and you pay a premium for that. Now if the CTS can be a competitor for 5 years, and Cadillac can build a second true competitor- then you'll see BMW paired with Cadillac when they discuss best in class. Again, this isn't the Magazine's fault- Cadillac is late to the party.

[ArcAngel]

Pro American all the way!! F the imports!! Proud owner and driver of American cars since 1993!!!

[nester7929]

Look, overall I prefer domestic as much as everyone else on this board, however the presence of imports is vital to us as a consumer base. It increases competition, which results in better price and in better quality. Look what has recently been happening in the market. American car companies gained a reputation of being out of touch with the market and lagging behind the standard in terms of quality. Now whether or not that is actually true is irrelevant; the market works on perception of reality rather than reality itself. However, as a result, the American car companies have been forced to step up their game. Because of this, we have much better products coming down the assembly lines.


Now if only other countries would let us have access to their auto markets like we allow with imports...

[littlecammi]

Originally Posted by MrIcky

When I was in High School in the 80's I'd be looking at cars like the Porsche 959 with my mouth gaping open.

That's the problem. You grew up in the period when the mainstream automobile magazines were lauding everything German and Japanese and criticizing everything from American automakers. Granted that this was easy for them to do during the period beginning in the early '70s when government regulations destroyed the first musclecar era and American automakers had yet to develop technologies to overcome the newly mandated emissions controls, mileage requirements and crash impact standards.

The super rich will always be able to buy their expensive Porsches and Lamborghinis and Ferraris and Aston Martins. And those cars should be good for the money they charge for them. But don't make cars like the BMW M3 out to be superior to the best American cars, because they are not. It only appears that way from the constant praise heaped on all BMWs by the automotive press. And American car sales continue to suffer as a result.

[JBsC6]

the best part or at least one of the really cool parts of owning a GM performance vehicle whether its a corvette or a new Camaro SS...

The performance is world class yet the maintaince cost is minimal compared to the foreign cars mentioned above..

I wouldn't want to own a BMW out of warranty yet a camaro SS with a five year 100K mile warranty wouldn't give me a care in the world even after the five year mark..

Ask anyone whose owned a BIMMER or a porsche...what repair and maintaince bills are like.

its a brutal existance that trancends the purchase price..(which is already too high)

JMO but owning a car that performs like a bat out of hell and yet is affordable to purchase and maintain are key ingredients...to a great ownership experience..

JMO

[GatorBlue371]

Originally Posted by JBsC6

the best part or at least one of the really cool parts of owning a GM performance vehicle whether its a corvette or a new Camaro SS...

The performance is world class yet the maintaince cost is minimal compared to the foreign cars mentioned above..

I wouldn't want to own a BMW out of warranty yet a camaro SS with a five year 100K mile warranty wouldn't give me a care in the world even after the five year mark..

Ask anyone whose owned a BIMMER or a porsche...what repair and maintaince bills are like.
its a brutal existance that trancends the purchase price..(which is already too high)

JMO but owning a car that performs like a bat out of hell and yet is affordable to purchase and maintain are key ingredients...to a great ownership experience..

JMO

My family owns/have owned both, and i can say the bills are a bitch.

however, because of those bills, its kind of a 'pay to play' type of situation. Porsche probably has the best engineering in the world, people that talk shit about them have either never driven their cars, or dont know anything about cars.

For the value, GM builds the best cars in the world. My father has a 911 4S and will soon add a Z06 to the garage, but they are two different classes of cars.

[JBsC6]

I'm sure the porsche 911 is a great vehicle. no question about it yet if I were to drive the porsche like I drive my vette I have a feeling the maintaince and repair bills would be quite a bit higher.

for me? I'd rather be driving a vette or a camaro over a 911 or a M3.

I definitely see the new Camaro SS as a much better alternative than an M3.

I realize the M3 is a much heralded vehicle....yet in todays car and driver I was laughing how the example they were raving over was 73 grand.....

I'd definitely choose a mid 30's 400hp or 422 hp camaro and have a blast over a 70 grand Bimmer...

Out of the Mustang, challenger and camaro I really only see the camaro as a true alternative to the M3. I do dig the DSG tranny technology but not at around 40 grand more expensive...

Again...this is just my opinion and I am sure the guys who drop the extra coin for the M3 are making the right choice for them...

For me? I'd rather have a camaro with a honking 400 + V8

[GatorBlue371]

Originally Posted by JBsC6

I'm sure the porsche 911 is a great vehicle. no question about it yet if I were to drive the porsche like I drive my vette I have a feeling the maintaince and repair bills would be quite a bit higher.

for me? I'd rather be driving a vette or a camaro over a 911 or a M3.

I definitely see the new Camaro SS as a much better alternative than an M3.

I realize the M3 is a much heralded vehicle....yet in todays car and driver I was laughing how the example they were raving over was 73 grand.....

I'd definitely choose a mid 30's 400hp or 422 hp camaro and have a blast over a 70 grand Bimmer...

Out of the Mustang, challenger and camaro I really only see the camaro as a true alternative to the M3. I do dig the DSG tranny technology but not at around 40 grand more expensive...

Again...this is just my opinion and I am sure the guys who drop the extra coin for the M3 are making the right choice for them...

For me? I'd rather have a camaro with a honking 400 + V8

its a different class of car, speed is cheap and speed is the only comparison that the SS can even be talked about when thinking of an M3.


ps. MSRP of the M3 is in the 50's

[JBsC6]

I realize the MSRP is in the 50's.. I think the base M3 coupe is 59 grand but most come optioned out...and the example in the car and driver article had almost 14 grand in options..

Thats a lot of coin. IMO and your right....I am comparing the M3 to the camaro SS with two basic parameters..Performance and 2 + 2 seating.

If I were choosing.? I'd chose the camaro Ss over the much more expensive M3 and keep the extra money in the bank...(or where ever anyone chooses)

its just a personal opinion and not an insult to those that prefer the m3. I understand that choice. I just don't happen to agree for myself.

what can i say I'm impressed when I think of what GM has accomplished with the new Camaro SS.

Performance may be off with the Camaro SS compared to the much more expensive M3. (which I like) but I doubt the difference is that great.

Can't wait to see and read about the various performance shootouts. Should be worth a few laughs.

Remember...this is just a personal opinion ...nothing more and certainly not an insult to those who prefer the m3.

Fwiw..I also dig the new Pontiac G8 GT and GXP as well as the recently released CTS V. (and the solstice GXP turbo) What can I say I'm a GM fan.

[Camaroinmo]

Originally Posted by dieseldave24v

The 370 is ok I guess it doesnt do ti for me, but I do see why people would like it. Just not for me. Look at what they are selling for.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-...1%7C240%3A1318

No, that's what that one is listed for, and with only one offer. Dealers are already selling them for less than MSRP. I went to see one today. Didn't drive it, just sat in it for a bit. Beautiful car, but a little tight for a guy 6'4". I had enough head room, but felt a little like a sardine. I will hold out to see the Camaro for sure.

[GatorBlue371]

Originally Posted by JBsC6

I realize the MSRP is in the 50's.. I think the base M3 coupe is 59 grand but most come optioned out...and the example in the car and driver article had almost 14 grand in options..

Thats a lot of coin. IMO and your right....I am comparing the M3 to the camaro SS with two basic parameters..Performance and 2 + 2 seating.

If I were choosing.? I'd chose the camaro Ss over the much more expensive M3 and keep the extra money in the bank...(or where ever anyone chooses)

its just a personal opinion and not an insult to those that prefer the m3. I understand that choice. I just don't happen to agree for myself.

what can i say I'm impressed when I think of what GM has accomplished with the new Camaro SS.

Performance may be off with the Camaro SS compared to the much more expensive M3. (which I like) but I doubt the difference is that great.

Can't wait to see and read about the various performance shootouts. Should be worth a few laughs.

Remember...this is just a personal opinion ...nothing more and certainly not an insult to those who prefer the m3.

Fwiw..I also dig the new Pontiac G8 GT and GXP as well as the recently released CTS V. (and the solstice GXP turbo) What can I say I'm a GM fan.

ya i love how the SS (performance wise) is comparable to much more expensive cars, which is why i am going to be getting one.


And everyone has an opinion and everyone is entitled to one, even my buddy who choose a used mini over an SS....

[MrIcky]

Originally Posted by littlecammi

That's the problem. You grew up in the period when the mainstream automobile magazines were lauding everything German and Japanese and criticizing everything from American automakers. Granted that this was easy for them to do during the period beginning in the early '70s when government regulations destroyed the first musclecar era and American automakers had yet to develop technologies to overcome the newly mandated emissions controls, mileage requirements and crash impact standards.

The super rich will always be able to buy their expensive Porsches and Lamborghinis and Ferraris and Aston Martins. And those cars should be good for the money they charge for them. But don't make cars like the BMW M3 out to be superior to the best American cars, because they are not. It only appears that way from the constant praise heaped on all BMWs by the automotive press. And American car sales continue to suffer as a result.

No, it's because I grew up when most American cars were crap. There were some notable exceptions that got good press, like the GNX. You missed the point of that Porsche article. Porsche is run by people who love to drive and race Porsches.

Again, though- you miss the point of the last 20 years. America hasn't produced ANYTHING BMW class until the CTS and maybe the G8 GT. The magazines are heaping praise left and right on both of these cars CTS was Car of the Year last year and is top 10 again this year. The press is gushing over the G8. They've loved the Corvette. Have you read the press on the new Cobalt SS? Blaming the press is a COPOUT.

Whenever GM takes control of development away from the bean-counters and gives it to someone who loves the project he's working on, GM scores a hit. They always have. They lost sight of this. The Cobalt SS is the perfect example of this- you have to have a guy like Heinrichy pushing a project who's got vision and is willing to spend an extra $200 to put Brembo's on it. One of the reasons I know the Camaro will be a hit is because GM is passionate about it, and it's more than just something to fill a market segment.

[littlecammi]

Originally Posted by MrIcky

I grew up when most American cars were crap.

Now you have revealed the real reason for all of your argumentative posts in this thread.

And that is not relevant to the point I have been trying to make anyway. The mainstream automobile magazines have lauded imports and denigrated domestic automobiles for decades. (They are incapable of releasing a ten best list without including the BMW 3-series every single year.) Yes, all car sales are suffering now due to the poor economy. But American car sales have been suffering for years and will continue to suffer when/if the economy recovers because a great portion of their former customers have become loyal customers of the various import brands. Customers who will not even consider buying American when choosing their next vehicles. It matters not if the press now applauds a few exceptional domestic models, as the damage has already long been done.