Chevy dealer charging $20K over MSRP for Volt

[1bad65]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

And you have your history wrong. There was a time when electric cars were quite popular, particularly with women. They were quiet, smooth, and simple and I think they were the most popular form of automobile, ahead of the ICE and steam. And all of them were profitable too.

Please back that assertion up with facts.

If you are right, that means the automakers had found a car that was profitable, popular, and had no issues with CAFE standards, yet they just stopped making them. And since that makes zero sense, I'm betting you have your facts wrong.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

Please back that assertion up with facts.

If you are right, that means the automakers had found a car that was profitable, popular, and had no issues with CAFE standards, yet they just stopped making them. And since that makes zero sense, I'm betting you have your facts wrong.

Jsut so you know.. that whole "back up with facts" argument goes both ways.

Unless you have a business degree or a background in risk management, you are no more of an expert and have provided no more fact to support your side of the debate than anyone else has.

So how bout we all come to the understanding that this is all speculation as none of us work for GM, and have a respectful conversation.

[jrc1122]

MSRP= Manufacturer's SUGGESTED Retail price.


I think a dealer has the right to sell these cars for whatever level of profit they want. It is their product.. That doesn't mean I will buy it.

I am like most other consumers. I look for good deals, with quality and cost in mind. The Chevy Volt @20K over MSRP is an extremely bad deal. So I would not buy from them. And furthermore if I was really interested in the Volt (which I am not), this would turn me off from buying from this dealership for any vehicle.

But from an economic standpoint, If they get 9 Volts all year, and can sell them all for 20K over sticker (unlikely).. That stealership makes 180K more that year. Just on 9 cars. Not to mention whatever they make from profits built into the MSRP.

Cliff notes:

Price your cars whatever you want. But be prepared for the backlash of turned off customer's from your attempts to make a HUGE profit, on an item that is being subsidized by us, the tax payer.

[1bad65]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

Jsut so you know.. that whole "back up with facts" argument goes both ways.

Unless you have a business degree or a background in risk management, you are no more of an expert and have provided no more fact to support your side of the debate than anyone else has.

I don't need a business degree, I have GM to back up many of my assertions. I said they will sell the Volt at a loss, GM said this before I did. I said GM just got a bailout , I'm correct on that one too. I said Americans have never demanded electric/plug-in cars in big enough numbers to make selling them profitable, and I'm correct on that assertion as well.

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

So how bout we all come to the understanding that this is all speculation as none of us work for GM, and have a respectful conversation.

I've already said that. I've also said companies who just got a taxpayer bailout shouldn't be touting a car they admit they are going to lose money on. I've said they need to make sound business decisions. For example, they need to focus on vehicles that make them money, like the Camaro.

And are you suggesting I've been disrespectful?

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

I don't need a business degree, I have GM to back up many of my assertions. I said they will sell the Volt at a loss, GM said this before I did. I said GM just got a bailout , I'm correct on that one too. I said Americans have never demanded electric/plug-in cars in big enough numbers to make selling them profitable, and I'm correct on that assertion as well.



I've already said that. I've also said companies who just got a taxpayer bailout shouldn't be touting a car they admit they are going to lose money on. I've said they need to make sound business decisions. For example, they need to focus on vehicles that make them money, like the Camaro.

And are you suggesting I've been disrespectful?

No, Now I'm saying you are bein' a smart ass. I'll gladly show you the door if you'd like.

I'd rather not, so here's my reply,

Why don't you show us, proven with a link to an article or some press release, where GM said they'd sell it at a loss, why should I take your word for it.....

Pretty immature of me wasn't it. Not really the way to have a respectful conversation is it...

So let me try again.

I respect that GM has said that the Volt will not make money initially. But it is clear that there is a long term goal with cars like this.

There is a blitz on to be among the first to bring a viable electric car that the masses can drive daily. IMO, there is more than a monetary pay off to be gained.... There is a public opinion front, there is a conservation front, certainly the Green front. And long term the Volt will in fact make GM money.

No car that is ever produced is profitable on release day. The camaro is just now at the break even point of being truly profitable.

Sure, there is a cost per unit. But it takes time for that cost per unit to make up for the millions and sometimes billions of dollars paid up front to bring the car to market...

The volt is certainly no exception considering all the risk GM took and the cost to build it...


Either way I hope that communicates my thoughts on the topic.

[1bad65]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

No, Now I'm saying you are bein' a smart ass. I'll gladly show you the door if you'd like.

Have I broken any of the TOS terms I agreed to? I'm being mature and rational in this debate, which imo, is nowhere near being uncivil.

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

Why don't you show us, proven with a link to an article or some press release, where GM said they'd sell it at a loss, why should I take your word for it.....

Here are two:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/doc...Assessment.pdf
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10212977-48.html

And this quote from my 2nd link really made me laugh: "We can't make money on the first Volts," said Troy Clarke, president of GM's North American operations. "But as we get a chance to change the generations of technology, we'll lose less and less."

Also, you just proved my assertion yourself:

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

I respect that GM has said that the Volt will not make money initially. But it is clear that there is a long term goal with cars like this.

And as my link says, Mr Clarke of GM says the Volt will just lose "less and less" long-term. Notice he never says he expects profit from the Volt.

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

And long term the Volt will in fact make GM money.

Not according to the President of GM's North American operations.

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

No car that is ever produced is profitable on release day. The camaro is just now at the break even point of being truly profitable.

Again proving one of my points. I said the Camaro makes GM money, and that's another fact I got right. But again, GM themselves never expects the Volt to be profitable, only to lose "less and less" money as time goes by.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

Not according to the President of GM's North American operations.

...who is no longer President of GM NA.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

Have I broken any of the TOS terms I agreed to? I'm being mature and rational in this debate, which imo, is nowhere near being uncivil.



Here are two:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/doc...Assessment.pdf
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10212977-48.html

And this quote from my 2nd link really made me laugh: "We can't make money on the first Volts," said Troy Clarke, president of GM's North American operations. "But as we get a chance to change the generations of technology, we'll lose less and less."

Also, you just proved my assertion yourself:



And as my link says, Mr Clarke of GM says the Volt will just lose "less and less" long-term. Notice he never says he expects profit from the Volt.



Not according to the President of GM's North American operations.



Again proving one of my points. I said the Camaro makes GM money, and that's another fact I got right. But again, GM themselves never expects the Volt to be profitable, only to lose "less and less" money as time goes by.

OK.

Now I'm sure you are being a smart ass. And yes, stirring the pot, being sarcastic, instigating arguments, can and will get you banned from C5. We consider it trolling. FWIW.

I never said you were wrong. I just said you asked for facts and you hadn't, to that point, provided any. But was asking others to provide them to support their argument. My original point was that goes both ways. Not a statement of right or wrong.

I've never disputed your point and, as you sarcastically pointed out, I agreed with you.

To be clear, all I'm saying, that you may not agree with, is there is more to gain then dollars on a car like this. I also agree to disagree with you that the Volt will eventually make money... My opinion is that it will. There are some things that will have to fall into place like an advancement in the batteries or some more tax incentives for electric cars. But I do also agree that day is way out there.

GM's bottom line is obviously affected by many sources of revenue. I would hope, that the initial losses/cost on the volt is being offset by the profitability of the other vehicles that GM sells. Most business are comfortable with taking a loss in one area if it benefits the whole company and makes the whole company more profitable. It's risky but it can be a huge payoff in the long term.

That is all I'm saying. You don't have to agree with me. All I'm really asking of you is to respect mine, and other's opinions, whether they are based on verifiable facts or not.

[Xanthos]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

To be clear, all I'm saying, that you may not agree with, is there is more to gain then dollars on a car like this.

This, in my opinion, is the biggest point.

Part of the reason that America has fallen behind other parts of the world in scientific advancement (look at all the advances coming from China right now, for example) is that we've stopped, or at least significantly reduced, spending money simply for the purpose of that advancement. Its gotten to the point where nobody spends money unless they can make money off that spending. We didn't make money by going to the moon, but we learned a whole lot, and the technology used to get us there was able to filter into civilian uses. The volt is the same kind of situation: its creation brings new technology that hasn't before been used in the automotive marketplace. It will help reduce our dependence on foreign oil. And I agree with GTAHVIT, that it will eventually turn a profit for GM.

Oh, and the electric cars that DG was talking about earlier, that were really popular with women, etc...

Those were the electric carriages, such as the electric Phaeton, built around the end of the 19th century.
- X

[1bad65]

Well that about wraps it up. Time will tell whose speculations were right, but I'm betting it will flop. Again; I have history, the White House report, and at least one GM executive on my side.

I believe Austin is one of the markets the Volt will hit first. If so, it will be easy for me to see how quickly they are selling. And Austin's demographics are perfect for the Volt. If it doesn't sell good here, that's not a good start for the Volt.

[Berean]

Interesting excerpt from Wikipedia:

"At the turn of the century, 40 percent of American automobiles were powered by steam, 38 percent by electricity, and 22 percent by gasoline. 33,842 electric cars were registered in the United States, and America became the country where electric cars had gained the most acceptance.[16] While basic electric cars cost under $1,000 (in 1900 dollars, roughly $26,000 today), most early electric vehicles were massive, ornate carriages designed for the upper-class customers that made them popular. They featured luxurious interiors, replete with expensive materials, and averaged $3,000 by 1900 (roughly $78,000 today). Sales of electric cars peaked in 1912.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...ectric_vehicle


Back then, the free market decided what worked and what didn't. As Ford made the price of gasoline powered cars drop to $360, it just didn't make financial sense to buy an electric car. And we're all better off because of it.

Here's to the free market.
May she rest in peace.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

Well that about wraps it up. Time will tell whose speculations were right, but I'm betting it will flop. Again; I have history, the White House report, and at least one GM executive on my side.

I believe Austin is one of the markets the Volt will hit first. If so, it will be easy for me to see how quickly they are selling. And Austin's demographics are perfect for the Volt. If it doesn't sell good here, that's not a good start for the Volt.

Fair enough... For the sake of the Volt and what I think it means to decreasing our dependnace on foreign oil, I hope it is a success.

[1bad65]

I checked the local GM dealers, and they don't have any yet. Any idea when they will begin selling them?

And yes, Austin will be one of the cities that the very first Volts available to the public will be sold at.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...new-york-city/

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

I checked the local GM dealers, and they don't have any yet. Any idea when they will begin selling them?

And yes, Austin will be one of the cities that the very first Volts available to the public will be sold at.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...new-york-city/

Production hasn't even started yet. November 1st is when the first saleable cars go down the line.