Big 3 Loan Failed to Pass - Congress voting...Not promising.

[VictoryRed08]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

alright, I have to take my mod hat off for a minute or two.

Just when I was starting to have some faith in the UAW and the US Government, they both pull this. WTF is wrong with these people? All this bull about not wasting tax payers money is a total crock. They have given over 10x what was proposed for GM and Chrysler to AIG alone. It makes me sick. And the UAW. I don't think they realize that 0 benefits are a whole worse than reduced pay. This is all a damm game to these people, everyone -union, gov, corporations, reporters, hell even all us on forums and blogs. But there are millions of jobs on the line, hundreds of billions (trillion+?) of dollars worth of revenue that could be lost. Companies that built the American dream. That built the arsenal of democracy in WWII. That made America the country that it is. They are on the brink of annihilation because of the laws made (or not made) by politicians over the last 30 years, and deals that the unions have forced over the last 70 years, by the automakers that realized they were in trouble 10 years too late, and by consumers who refuse to buy a new Chevy Malibu because they owned an AMC Gremlin in the 80's and it was a POS, and thus every american car today is crap.

But the management at the big 3 is incompetent!
And the sub-prime mortgage lenders were geniuses? Oh wait, they triggered the avalanche.

But it will cost the tax payers too much
Failure of the big three, including ch11 -not to mention ch7, will cost tax payers a hell of a lot more than any loan will. A loan will 'cost' the taxpayers about -$1B, after interest is payed. Compare that to 200B for pension/healthcare, and much more than that in lost income.

They don't buid cars that people want
No, people want the cars they just can't get credit to buy them.


Also, does anyone here have any idea how many congressmen/senators who opposed to this bill have a foreign owned car, engine, or transmission plant in their state? I'm gonna guess the percentage is pretty high but I don't know.

Honestly, this is one of the stupidest things that I've seen in my 23 years on this earth. Based on actions of the last year - mortgages, then credit crunch, now this, and the reaction (or inaction) by the government (both dem and rep), I'd almost say that America deserves to fail as a nation. If so many people can be so stupid, in so many areas, then your nation no longer deserves the power and greatness that it built up over the decades and centuries. Problem is, that would bring down about a half dozen other developed nations, including Canada. And I don't feel like learning Chinese.

I'm done now.
back to being a moderator

Well said, I completely agree. I didn't know there was anyone else from niagara on here, good to know.

Just a side note, the US taxpayers pay for hundreds of billions put towards Military funding every year but can't fork out 15 Billion to save hundreds of thousands of jobs? What has the world come to? I fear for GM's future, anyone know how that affects people such as myself that have a car loan with them?

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by rmyers

Which is exactly what they need to do, get away from the unions. Tell the workers, look we either dismantle the union, or we dismantle the factory and move it to a right to work state.

Move their factories out of Michigan and Into a "Right to Work" State like alabama where foreign automaker plants are and aren't unionized...

[playhard67]

letter sent

[Supermans]

GM trying to survive for a shot at Plan O _ Obama

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081212/D95154BG0.html

General Motors is saving every cent it can, from shutting down escalators at night to limiting workers' choice of pens, in case it needs to fight to survive beyond year's end and until a friendlier Washington takes over.

I hope the issue with legacy costs, union strangleholds, etc get resolved before the new administration turns it into a power grab for eventual total government control of the auto industry or worse, the government hands over total control to the Union that is a large part of the cause of this mess after the bailout/buyout..

[rmyers]

Originally Posted by VictoryRed08

Just a side note, the US taxpayers pay for hundreds of billions put towards Military funding every year but can't fork out 15 Billion to save hundreds of thousands of jobs? What has the world come to?

It is the job of the US Government to provide for the defense of this nation. It is NOT the job of the US Government to bailout banks or private companies.

[GTAHVIT]

My assessment,

There are two problems here. 1. Should the union have to compromise? 2. Should the Government send the money no matter what the Union does?

If you feel that the unions are overpaid and are the biggest contributing factor to domestic auto companies inability to compete, (we've all seen the numbers compared to foreign auto workers, I won't restate them here) then you feel that as part of the problem, the UAW should meet the demands of Congress. The argument for this is the big three need to close the gap in salaries and therefore reduce the price of their product making them more competitive and able to sustain the efforts to reorganize. The argument against this is. Why should the Unions have to compromise on existing contracts. Should the Unions be held accountable for bad contracts signed by the big three.

If you feel that we just need to get these companies through this tough time and let GM and the UAW fight it out at a later date, Then the Government should quit bickering and cut the check. The argument for this approach is everyone wins. GM gets the money and the Union keeps it's high salaries. The argument against says that you aren't fixing the real problem and until you do the big three will continue to be at a disadvantage and we'll be right back where we stated.

Don't dirty up the conversation with talk of SUVs, CAFE, Gas prices, Economy, bank bailouts and so on. Of which I am guilty of also. The core of this problem is in the two positions above.

Talk of what this country deserves and what it doesn't is irrelevant to the problem at hand which is what is the right thing to do. In part I am proud that the Congress stood their ground. And, In part, I am disappointed they failed to negotiate and therefore produce a passable bill. The other part of my problem with all of this is the big three have humbled themselves in direct response to public criticism, reorganized their companies, offered to cut their own salaries to help garner support. Why has the union chosen to dig in now? It appears that everyone has been playing ball to get this passed. And all of a sudden the Union became unyielding. Resulting in Congress voting it down.

My guess is President Bush will give them at least some money. If for some reason he chooses not to, I'm also relatively sure President Obama will Give them the loan.

Again, this is not over. When the Big Three file for Bankruptcy, then its over. Until then they will fight the good fight to stay alive as long as possible.

Whatever your position is We all want GM to survive. So, heed Scott's advice and send the letters.

[StuMac]

I am sick and tired of people saying "there need to be restructuring strings attached" The big three know they need to restructure, they are restructuring, you don't need to tell them, you don't need to insist on it.

[DGthe3]

rmyers, only part of this is directed specifically at you.

Originally Posted by rmyers

What difference does it make if everyone that opposed it came from a state with a foreign owned car factory. Perhaps it gives them better insight as to what works and what doesn't. These foreign owned plants do hire americans and contribute to the local, state, and federal economy don't they. Do you honestly believe there is some cynical reason for them voting against this legislation. Lets not forget, it is only the Big 3 that are threatening bankruptcy. While the other companies are hurting from the recession, they aren't threatening to go underr at least not at the moment. So what we need to do is put our emotions aside and ask our selves, what are the foreign companies doing that prevented this from happening to them and lets convince the Big 3 to do the same. Instead of financing the same old tired business practices that got them here in the first place. You can describe insanity as, doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting different results.

For the sake of our kids and grandkids we owe it to them to fix the difficult problems now, instead of passing them off on them to fix later.

Well, if a Honda plant is operating in Alabama and the big 3 go under, that would mean extra shifts at that plant. More jobs for them. Why isn't Toyota hurting? Maybe its because most foreign automakers are practically blocked from selling in Japan. Maybe its because Toyota doesn't have to support a few thousands and thousands of retiree's, or hundreds of thousands with a healthcare plan. Maybe its because they get help to do things like making hybrids. Or maybe its because of a more efficient business model, which calls for middle management to work themselves to death.

For the last couple years, GM has been restructuring itself. Look at the new products and improved quality and reliability. Look at all the layoffs and plant closures they've announced. They haven't been selling fewer vehicles (until the last 6 months that is), their market share has been decreasing. Ford started a bit earlier. Chrysler just recently. In hindsight, this was a decade too late.

If Chapter 11 is a free ticket to salvation, why was GM even asking for a loan? I'd like to think that they know more about this than any of us do, just like they know more about how to engineer a car. We complain as if we know what we're talking about. But we only know a small part of the story. If there was a way for any of the automakers to simply ditch the union, then they would have done it. Instead, GM does things like making an agreement with the UAW that reduces their costs by $8B. Losing the union would be double that.

Ch 11 isn't a magic wand that fixes everything instantly. Most companies that file for ch11 are either financial institutions or service industries, not manufacturing comanies. But even then, it normally takes years for those 'simple' operations. A company as big as GM could take a decade to get everything settled, a long with an awful lot of money and reduced sales for them. Also, ch11 allows for a company to be forced to liquidate their assets if restructuring doesn't seem viable.

[MCPOAJ]

Hi... America... depression... depression... America. MERRY CHRISTMAS

[Camaro_Corvette]

[ZombieEatsYou]

Just in: Treasury agrees to fund the loan:
http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/mar...lks-come-halt/

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by ZombieEatsYou

Just in: Treasury agrees to fund the loan:
http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/mar...lks-come-halt/

Seems like its going to be a loan (possible handout) to last until they can get a loan from congress which should last until they can get a loan from the Obama admin which should last through the restructuring.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Mr. Magee's a class-A a$$hole.....just putting it out there.

[rmyers]

DGthe3, since you weren't specific as to which part was directed to me, I will assume at least the first paragraph is so let me address your points specifically:

1. Assuming most foreign mfg's are blocked from selling, with a population in Japan of approx. 90 million between the ages of 15-64, I am not sure how many of those are in the market for a car? I really don't know what the potential foreign market is. Therefore, even if it was opened up, I doubt selling cars in Japan would save the US companies. Now that is probably not the point anyway. I assume you are raising the question that the US companies could sell more cars here, if we established similar protectionist measures and imposed more tariffs on foreign cars. So lets forget about Japan for a second and ask the following question. "Are Foreign car companies building cars in the US, profitable as a U.S. based unit alone?" I don't know the answer, but I assume they are. If they are, and the big 3 are not, well you can't very well blame Japan's protectionist practices.

2. Why is it the Big 3 have to support thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of former employees via health care or pensions? The answer is the UAW and the Big 3 period. Again this is not Japan's fault or the fault of Honda, Toyota, or anyone else.

3. Hybrids...will be sold when there is enough demand and the pricing is right. Considering the fact that you can fit the entire country of Japan inside some of our states, I tend to believe people there have somewhat different driving habits and requirements than we do here in the US. Having said that, I believe the Government should play a role in helping to finance the development of these types of technologies and in fact they often do. There are many cases where military technology is adapted for civilian use. But the bottom line, is that hybrids are still to expensive to justify the potential fuel savings. It therefore does not make financial sense for us to buy them, other than it might make some us feel better. But it does not make financial sense, a behavior which is largely to blame for all of the problems we are seeing today.

4. More efficient business model? Well if it is, then the Big 3 should be doing everything they can to duplicate what works instead of trying to make an unsustainable business model work. I don't recall seeing any headlines of middle-managment at foreign auto companies commiting suicide or dying from working too hard. I would in fact opine that unions have succeeded in making the average worker lazy. Obviously not all workers, but definitely some. Unions have helped to convince workers that a job that may be worth 15.00 per hour is somehow worth 30.00 per hour. It is simply not sustainable.

Regarding the rest of your post, just to be clear, I never proposed bankrupcy to be the free ticket or majic wand, my concerns and opinions are purely based on the role of Government and it is simply not the role of government to bail out private companies.