Expert?!?!?!? Michael Moore?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

the earth is constantly warming right now, we are reaching a climax point where we will dip back into a cold age. its going to happen. all we can do is try and slow down the rate at which its going to happen.

CamaroSpike23,

How exactly is global warming going to lead us into the next ice age? Once we reach this ice age, won't we need to warm up the planet which would be the exact opposite "environmentalists" are trying to do now? At that point in time my descendant will have to put away the hybrid and pull out my 2010 Camaro SS out of hibernation and start warming up the planet once more .. Notice how the words in all the school textbooks have replaced "global warming" with the term "climate change"...

[rmyers]

Its no longer referred to as "Global Warming"....they are now calling it "Climate Change"..that way if fits whether the earth is warming or cooling.

Yes the climate is changing all the time, but to attribute that to man, gives us way too much credit. In case you haven't heard, Congress is considering taxing methane gas generated by Cow farts!

[Shifty 6]

Didn't Teddy Danson tell us 20 years ago the ocean would be ruined in 10 years?


"missed it by that much!"

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by Supermans

CamaroSpike23,

How exactly is global warming going to lead us into the next ice age? Once we reach this ice age, won't we need to warm up the planet which would be the exact opposite "environmentalists" are trying to do now? At that point in time my descendant will have to put away the hybrid and pull out my 2010 Camaro SS out of hibernation and start warming up the planet once more .. Notice how the words in all the school textbooks have replaced "global warming" with the term "climate change"...

greenhouse warming is a destabilizing factor that makes abrupt climate change more probable. The equatorial sun warms the ocean surface and enhances evaporation in the tropics. This leaves the tropical ocean saltier. The Gulf Stream, a limb of the Ocean Conveyor, carries an enormous volume of heat-laden, salty water up the East Coast of the United States, and then northeast toward Europe. This oceanic heat pump is an important mechanism for reducing equator-to-pole temperature differences. It moderates Earth’s climate, particularly in the North Atlantic region. Conveyor circulation increases the northward transport of warmer waters in the Gulf Stream by about 50 percent. At colder northern latitudes, the ocean releases this heat to the atmosphere—especially in winter when the atmosphere is colder than the ocean and ocean-atmosphere temperature gradients increase. The Conveyor warms North Atlantic regions by as much as 5° Celsius and significantly tempers average winter temperatures. But records of past climates—from a variety of sources such as deep-sea sediments and ice-sheet cores—show that the Conveyor has slowed and shut down several times in the past. This shutdown curtailed heat delivery to the North Atlantic and caused substantial cooling throughout the region. the Conveyor system is often referred to as “the Achilles’ heel of our climate system.”

For a variety of reasons, North Atlantic waters are relatively salty compared with other parts of the world ocean. Salty water is denser than fresh water. Cold water is denser than warm water. When the warm, salty waters of the North Atlantic release heat to the atmosphere, they become colder and begin to sink. In the seas that ring the northern fringe of the Atlantic—the Labrador, Irminger, and Greenland Seas—the ocean releases large amounts of heat to the atmosphere and then a great volume of cold, salty water sinks to the abyss. This water flows slowly at great depths into the South Atlantic and eventually throughout the world’s oceans. Thus, the North Atlantic is the source of the deep limb of the Ocean Conveyor. The plunge of this great mass of cold, salty water propels the global ocean’s conveyor-like circulation system. It also helps draw warm, salty tropical surface waters northward to replace the sinking waters. This process is called “thermohaline circulation,” from the Greek words “thermos” (heat) and “halos” (salt). If cold, salty North Atlantic waters did not sink, a primary force driving global ocean circulation could slacken and cease. Existing currents could weaken or be redirected. The resulting reorganization of the ocean’s circulation would reconfigure Earth’s climate patterns. Computer models simulating ocean-atmosphere climate dynamics indicate that the North Atlantic region would cool 3° to 5° Celsius if Conveyor circulation were totally disrupted. It would produce winters twice as cold as the worst winters on record in the eastern United States in the past century. In addition, previous Conveyor shutdowns have been linked with widespread droughts throughout the globe. It is crucial to remember two points: 1) If thermohaline circulation shuts down and induces a climate transition, severe winters in the North Atlantic region would likely persist for decades to centuries—until conditions reached another threshold at which thermohaline circulation might resume. 2) Abrupt regional cooling may occur even as the earth, on average, continues to warm.

If the climate system’s Achilles’ heel is the Conveyor, the Conveyor’s Achilles’ heel is the North Atlantic. An influx of fresh water into the North Atlantic’s surface could create a lid of more buoyant fresh water, lying atop denser, saltier water. This fresh water would effectively cap and insulate the surface of the North Atlantic, curtailing the ocean’s transfer of heat to the atmosphere. An influx of fresh water would also dilute the North Atlantic’s salinity. At a critical but unknown threshold, when North Atlantic waters are no longer sufficiently salty and dense, they may stop sinking. An important force driving the Conveyor could quickly diminish, with climate impacts resulting within a decade. In an important paper published in 2002 in Nature, oceanographers monitoring and analyzing conditions in the North Atlantic concluded that the North Atlantic has been freshening dramatically—continuously for the past 40 years but especially in the past decade.4 The new data show that since the mid-1960s, the subpolar seas feeding the North Atlantic have steadily and noticeably become less salty to depths of 1,000 to 4,000 meters. This is the largest and most dramatic oceanic change ever measured in the era of modern instruments. At present the influx of fresher water has been distributed throughout the water column. But at some point, fresh water may begin to pile up at the surface of the North Atlantic. When that occurs, the Conveyor could slow down or cease operating.

The big problem is the fact that we do no know at what threshold the Conveyor will cease. Nor do we know how long it would take for a possibly catastrophic climate change to take place. However, that does not mean that we should carry on with reckless abandon.
And tho I know some jackass people are going to flame me for this reference without thinking about my point, but the movie "day after tomorrow" pans out a possible outcome. now, that being said, I do not believe that it could happen in the time frame of a week such as it was in the movie, but more so over the course of a couple decades.

I know it sounds ironic that a global warming could lead to a global cooling, but our climate is a very fragile thing that is, but should not be, taken for granted.


and yes, global warming as a term has evolved into a "myth" in the public mind. and it is now referred to as climate change. thats the thing about the masses. if its not immediately affecting them, they dont care.

[GTAHVIT]

Our climate is not fragile. How much more must it be tested??? meteorites, nuclear bombs/testing, Ice ages, volcanoes, polution, deforestation, and most significantly, my foot through the floor of my last HiPo V8 (I had the carbon foot print of Andre the Giant when I drove my 97 stepside.)

How much more do we have to put our climate through before it gets the credit it deserves for being one bad Mo-Fo.

[DGthe3]

ahem, "Expert" Micheal Moore

[kanakattack]

I know that many are against CAFE and what Michael Moore states, but if any of you saw last nights "60 Minutes" you may realize why it is necessary for us to develop more efficient cars and alternative fuel.
Heres the link;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...rightRailInner

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

ahem, "Expert" Micheal Moore

See, even mods get moderated.....


Sorry....:(


Yeah, back on topic, Like DGthe3 said....

[zebra]

Originally Posted by gtahvit

See, even mods get moderated.....


Sorry....:(


Yeah, back on topic, Like DGthe3 said....

in everyone's defense, it is a little hard to explain why somebody is not (or is) an expert without going into the topics that support your decision.

[Camaro_Corvette]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

ahem, "Expert" Micheal Moore

NOT!

[StuMac]

I knew he was an idiot, but now he's a wildly inconsistent idiot. Yes, lets give the president the power to dictate the production of any industry in peace time (dictate being the root of the word Dictatorship) this can't possibly fly in the face of your career of pointing out how government misuses it's power.

[swifttal]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

you dont have to be an "expert" per se to have an intelligent opinion about something.

this thread needs to be changed to "Michael Moore Bashing Thread"

did any of you "bashers" with nothing real to add besides "he's a ****** and a ******" ever think about......

what if he's right?

what if he's not the only person in the world with this opinion?, what if its been a proven fact that the polar caps are melting?, that the govt should step in and have some control over production of automobiles so that it is more focused on transportation and not just making the company money while screwing over the rest of the world?

Wheh! That's a good one... though you do have a point, even the best idiots can't be wrong 100% of the time

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

greenhouse warming is a destabilizing factor that makes abrupt climate change more probable. The equatorial sun warms the ocean surface and enhances evaporation in the tropics. This leaves the tropical ocean saltier. The Gulf Stream, a limb of the Ocean Conveyor, carries an enormous volume of heat-laden, salty water up the East Coast of the United States, and then northeast toward Europe. This oceanic heat pump is an important mechanism for reducing equator-to-pole temperature differences. It moderates Earth’s climate, particularly in the North Atlantic region. Conveyor circulation increases the northward transport of warmer waters in the Gulf Stream by about 50 percent. At colder northern latitudes, the ocean releases this heat to the atmosphere—especially in winter when the atmosphere is colder than the ocean and ocean-atmosphere temperature gradients increase. The Conveyor warms North Atlantic regions by as much as 5° Celsius and significantly tempers average winter temperatures. But records of past climates—from a variety of sources such as deep-sea sediments and ice-sheet cores—show that the Conveyor has slowed and shut down several times in the past. This shutdown curtailed heat delivery to the North Atlantic and caused substantial cooling throughout the region. the Conveyor system is often referred to as “the Achilles’ heel of our climate system.”

For a variety of reasons, North Atlantic waters are relatively salty compared with other parts of the world ocean. Salty water is denser than fresh water. Cold water is denser than warm water. When the warm, salty waters of the North Atlantic release heat to the atmosphere, they become colder and begin to sink. In the seas that ring the northern fringe of the Atlantic—the Labrador, Irminger, and Greenland Seas—the ocean releases large amounts of heat to the atmosphere and then a great volume of cold, salty water sinks to the abyss. This water flows slowly at great depths into the South Atlantic and eventually throughout the world’s oceans. Thus, the North Atlantic is the source of the deep limb of the Ocean Conveyor. The plunge of this great mass of cold, salty water propels the global ocean’s conveyor-like circulation system. It also helps draw warm, salty tropical surface waters northward to replace the sinking waters. This process is called “thermohaline circulation,” from the Greek words “thermos” (heat) and “halos” (salt). If cold, salty North Atlantic waters did not sink, a primary force driving global ocean circulation could slacken and cease. Existing currents could weaken or be redirected. The resulting reorganization of the ocean’s circulation would reconfigure Earth’s climate patterns. Computer models simulating ocean-atmosphere climate dynamics indicate that the North Atlantic region would cool 3° to 5° Celsius if Conveyor circulation were totally disrupted. It would produce winters twice as cold as the worst winters on record in the eastern United States in the past century. In addition, previous Conveyor shutdowns have been linked with widespread droughts throughout the globe. It is crucial to remember two points: 1) If thermohaline circulation shuts down and induces a climate transition, severe winters in the North Atlantic region would likely persist for decades to centuries—until conditions reached another threshold at which thermohaline circulation might resume. 2) Abrupt regional cooling may occur even as the earth, on average, continues to warm.

If the climate system’s Achilles’ heel is the Conveyor, the Conveyor’s Achilles’ heel is the North Atlantic. An influx of fresh water into the North Atlantic’s surface could create a lid of more buoyant fresh water, lying atop denser, saltier water. This fresh water would effectively cap and insulate the surface of the North Atlantic, curtailing the ocean’s transfer of heat to the atmosphere. An influx of fresh water would also dilute the North Atlantic’s salinity. At a critical but unknown threshold, when North Atlantic waters are no longer sufficiently salty and dense, they may stop sinking. An important force driving the Conveyor could quickly diminish, with climate impacts resulting within a decade. In an important paper published in 2002 in Nature, oceanographers monitoring and analyzing conditions in the North Atlantic concluded that the North Atlantic has been freshening dramatically—continuously for the past 40 years but especially in the past decade.4 The new data show that since the mid-1960s, the subpolar seas feeding the North Atlantic have steadily and noticeably become less salty to depths of 1,000 to 4,000 meters. This is the largest and most dramatic oceanic change ever measured in the era of modern instruments. At present the influx of fresher water has been distributed throughout the water column. But at some point, fresh water may begin to pile up at the surface of the North Atlantic. When that occurs, the Conveyor could slow down or cease operating.

The big problem is the fact that we do no know at what threshold the Conveyor will cease. Nor do we know how long it would take for a possibly catastrophic climate change to take place. However, that does not mean that we should carry on with reckless abandon.
And tho I know some jackass people are going to flame me for this reference without thinking about my point, but the movie "day after tomorrow" pans out a possible outcome. now, that being said, I do not believe that it could happen in the time frame of a week such as it was in the movie, but more so over the course of a couple decades.

I know it sounds ironic that a global warming could lead to a global cooling, but our climate is a very fragile thing that is, but should not be, taken for granted.


and yes, global warming as a term has evolved into a "myth" in the public mind. and it is now referred to as climate change. thats the thing about the masses. if its not immediately affecting them, they dont care.

You obviously believe in most of the mumbo jumbo theoretical science that is laid out as fact in classroom science textbooks without the other opinions of half the scientists around the world who oppose such theories.

Before we all had automobiles in the not too distant past and before the population was as large as it is now, we had massive climate change occur within recorded history and scientists have uncovered lots of evidence that the Earth has gone through quite a few cooling and heating periods.

With the sun getting more erratic as time goes on (since it is an uncontrolled massive gaseous fireball) which we have no control over and the possibility of asteroids and meteors the size of Texas falling to Earth. It is foolish to think we as a collective people are causing any type of massive amounts of climate change unlike anything that has happened before. Taxing Michael Moore's and other cow's methane filled gaseous farts is not going to solve any theoretical global warming/global cooling/climate change or whatever scientists come up next.

Why is it so hard for die hard global warming fanatical believers to believe that the Earth's climate is cyclical and naturally occurring with or without human influence? When the world does go into this "cooling period" that is being predicted, how will scientists want to counteract it then??? Increase the cow population tenfold and feed them re-fried beans along with their grass???

[swifttal]

Holy crap! You actually read that post?