Texas Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison regarding the Auto bailout!!

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by USAFJeeper

Isn't anyone else struck by the irony of the protectionists here... The Camaro is being built in Canada isn't it? Doesn't that make it an import?

We import as many American made cars as we export, probably more. And under the way things are written up, there are 4 groups of vehicles. Domestics, imports, captive imports, and domestically produced foreign. A Cobalt built in Mexico is domestic, a BMW built in Germany is an import, a G8 built in Australia is a captive import, and a Tundra built in texas is a domestically produced foreign.

The home country of an automaker reaps the benefits from that automakers international sales. Thats where the engineers and management are, most of them anyway. As are the universities where research and development is done.

Originally Posted by dayvedayve

Canada isn't part of the United States ??

Be nice or we won't send you Camaro's!

[sykb47l]

From: Congressman Charles A. Gonzalez
Subject: Thank you for your letter
Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 8:43 AM


Dear Mr. sykb47l:

For much of the 20th Century, the American automobile industry was the flagship of our economy. We lead the world in the field and workers made good, middle-class wages. Unfortunately, the so-called Big Three failed to appreciate the need for change. Now, the current economic crisis could finally shut the Big Three down for good.

I understand those who say, "Good riddance." Many of them have been calling for change for years; others simply want to let the Big Three pay for their mistakes. The problem is, you will pay for those mistakes, too. If the ten percent of our workforce in the auto industry were suddenly out of work, the rest of our economy would take a massive hit and, in its already weakened state, the damage would be even greater. Further, while bankruptcy proceedings could help millions of Americans keep their homes, they would not work for a company that needs to keep producing cars to recover. Finally, we need to recognize that the Big Three actually started to improve some years ago. As it will take some time for our economy to get out of the current hole, even if government takes all the right steps, it will take time for the Big Three to complete the total transformation that we all recognize is essential.

One of the weaknesses of the economic stabilization plan was its dependence on the Treasury to make smart investments. Now, Congress is demanding that Detroit produce a smart business model before we invest a dime of your money. I want our nation to have a strong automobile industry. We won't have that if Detroit goes back to their old ways of doing business nor if we let them fail. The Big Three need government assistance. That means that we have the chance to ensure that they make the kinds of changes necessary for America to have an auto industry we can be proud of. But whatever happens to them, if Detroit fails now, we'll lose much more than $25 billion from lost tax revenue, unemployment, and damage to the economy.

Saving the auto industry is about what's good for the country. Whether that happens to be good for GM, too, is beside the point.


Sincerely,

Charles A. Gonzalez
Member of Congress

[BowtieGuy]

Originally Posted by sykb47l

Finally, we need to recognize that the Big Three actually started to improve some years ago.

THANK YOU

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by sykb47l

From: Congressman Charles A. Gonzalez
Subject: Thank you for your letter
Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 8:43 AM


Dear Mr. sykb47l:

For much of the 20th Century, the American automobile industry was the flagship of our economy. We lead the world in the field and workers made good, middle-class wages. Unfortunately, the so-called Big Three failed to appreciate the need for change. Now, the current economic crisis could finally shut the Big Three down for good.

I understand those who say, "Good riddance." Many of them have been calling for change for years; others simply want to let the Big Three pay for their mistakes. The problem is, you will pay for those mistakes, too. If the ten percent of our workforce in the auto industry were suddenly out of work, the rest of our economy would take a massive hit and, in its already weakened state, the damage would be even greater. Further, while bankruptcy proceedings could help millions of Americans keep their homes, they would not work for a company that needs to keep producing cars to recover. Finally, we need to recognize that the Big Three actually started to improve some years ago. As it will take some time for our economy to get out of the current hole, even if government takes all the right steps, it will take time for the Big Three to complete the total transformation that we all recognize is essential.

One of the weaknesses of the economic stabilization plan was its dependence on the Treasury to make smart investments. Now, Congress is demanding that Detroit produce a smart business model before we invest a dime of your money. I want our nation to have a strong automobile industry. We won't have that if Detroit goes back to their old ways of doing business nor if we let them fail. The Big Three need government assistance. That means that we have the chance to ensure that they make the kinds of changes necessary for America to have an auto industry we can be proud of. But whatever happens to them, if Detroit fails now, we'll lose much more than $25 billion from lost tax revenue, unemployment, and damage to the economy.

Saving the auto industry is about what's good for the country. Whether that happens to be good for GM, too, is beside the point.


Sincerely,

Charles A. Gonzalez
Member of Congress

well thank God some elected official from our state understands the show.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Rodrunner

No offence, Dragoneye, but it hurt me to read your comment, "Just because something is cheap, or "high quality", or the "best" doesn't mean it's a good purchase.(if not American made) That attitude is totally unfathomable to me. It implies we can't produce as good a product and must settle for second best to compete in the world market, and therefore that we as a people must be inferior.

I know you made the comment because the playing field isn't level and I understand that. But that aside, the fact is, in a lot of cases we don't, or haven't, produced the best product, and damn it Americans shouldn't have to buy crap to keep us afloat, be it cars or socks. Level the playing field, sure, but don't whine about that until you're at least producing the best product you can.

That's what I meant. You will never (repeat for emphasis: NEVER) hear me say that America and our neighbors CAN'T do something. I cringe just thinking about it. What I meant was simply this: The idea of the "free market" when compared to other economic systems is to give the consumer the unadulterated choice. But the choice doesn't end at price and perceived quality. The consumer needs to take into account everything before he/she purchases things. That means where it's made and who gets supported by it, the impact it has on the environment (if you care), the materials used, the company's ethics etc, etc...but we don't.

Here's the biggest flaw with our consumer-base -- we're cheap bas*ards to the core:

Product 'A' costs $12. Competing product 'B' costs $10. Both are the same quality, both do the exact same thing, and for all intents and purposes, both look exactly the same. How many consumers do you think will take into account product 'A' was made here in NA, and product 'B' was made in China? I'd guess none, simply because 'A' is 2 bucks cheaper. It's ridiculous, but companies making good business decisions cater to this buying philosophy, and send operations to areas with lower standards of living and thus cheaper labor (see: China/India). Frankly, it disgusts me. That's what I was trying to get at with my original comment.

[stratman]

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

...taxing the import companies and making it almost impossible for them to sell cars here...

That is not protectionist policy that is a monopoly. And to be honest, if you have owned two Hondas that you loved I do not understand where you are coming from. And did you seriously bring up the Axis Powers? Wow

Originally Posted by BowtieGuy

So because Toyota has plants in America that makes it domestic? It doesn't matter where they are assembled, it matters where they are born.

No. It matters where the people being employed by the manufacturing plant are born. The point being that the factory is not on US soil and I'm guessing Chevy isn't shipping American workers there to build it. As I'm sure Japan isn't shipping Japanese workers here to fill the Toyota plants. Just because the net profit returns to the American brand doesn't mean it's helping the American worker.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

There's nothing wrong with wanting supporting your country. NOTHING. It was the lack of pride and support that led us down this path in the first place[/I]

I agree completely and not at all. While there is nothing wrong with wanting to support your country and that factoring into your decision making process it should not be the end all. If in your informed opinion the foreign car is a better buy for you and you still don't buy it I say you are a selfless f'ing idiot who will be consoled on unhappy commutes simply by a feeling of self-righteousness. Enjoy.

Blind support is a terrible thing and it does not lead to progress. I will give an example I hope will remain an example and not start a controversy. I am a black male in my late 20s and have all but washed my hands of what is considered "Black Entertainment". In the black community there is immense pressure to support black owned, produced and created anything to help the community. What this has led to is an undeserved acceptance and sense of pride in substandard products from ironically stereotypical movies and TV shows to the outright demise of Hip-Hop,Rap and R&B. My point being, if you'll take anything with a smile at some point they will start giving you anything with a bigger smile. If you don't want it don't buy it. Period. Just because we think GM is great doesn't mean that Joe Blow from Jersey has to. As an American it is his right not to.

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

you seriously dont comprehend the situation, do you? you really dont know how companies like Toyota get HUGE discounts on taxes to build factories here in the USA and then, when they come in under budget, they take these discounts and savings and put them into the company's budget in JAPAN, do you.

And? This is big business in a free market society any advantage you can be given you take. Why haven't the Big three worked out a similar deal to stop opening plants outside the states. You know why they get breaks to open plants here? Because they replace Jobs we are shipping elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Here's the biggest flaw with our consumer-base -- we're cheap bas*ards to the core:

Product 'A' costs $12. Competing product 'B' costs $10. Both are the same quality, both do the exact same thing, and for all intents and purposes, both look exactly the same. How many consumers do you think will take into account product 'A' was made here in NA, and product 'B' was made in China? I'd guess none, simply because 'A' is 2 bucks cheaper. It's ridiculous, but companies making good business decisions cater to this buying philosophy, and send operations to areas with lower standards of living and thus cheaper labor (see: China/India). Frankly, it disgusts me. That's what I was trying to get at with my original comment.

I mean are you serious or is this a joke? If you hand me two basically identical products that do the same task with equal success and tell me one costs 20% more but it's made in America you expect that to sway me to take the extra 20% of the money I get up at 6:00AM 5 days a week and bust me a$$ for and spend it on the American product? During a recession? Are you out of your mind? I mean honestly, stop for a second, remove the emotional aspect, look at what you just proposed logically and tell me that equation balances out. And remember your are actually talking in thousands not singles.

Look I have no desire to see the Big Three fold. But the way to correct it is not to attack your competitors it is to beat your competitors. In my opinion , with the possible exception of aesthetics, they have made up any ground they lagged in their automobiles behind the imports. Their war is to be on the cutting edge and win the war of public perception about their products. Make people see American Made means something again in the auto industry. Cause for a time it didn't and people really remember that. You don't attack a competitors ability to compete you out compete him. Or is the new "American Way" really just to have things handed to you on a silver platter? :flag2:

[DGthe3]

Free markets are great, so long as everyone plays be the same set of rules. Unfortunately, Japan protects their automakers and Germany gives lots of support to theirs. In America, the govenrment passes laws that do what the should be up to the free market (CAFE). How about instead of instituting protectionist policies for the purpose of making life hard on imports, what about simply mirroring trade laws of other countries? If they open their market to our products, we would be open to theirs. But if they keep themselves closed, why should we be open to them?

Lastly, your sentiments about not buying American in a recession because its more expensive remind me of a saying: Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by stratman

I mean are you serious or is this a joke? If you hand me two basically identical products that do the same task with equal success and tell me one costs 20% more but it's made in America you expect that to sway me to take the extra 20% of the money I get up at 6:00AM 5 days a week and bust me a$$ for and spend it on the American product? During a recession? Are you out of your mind? I mean honestly, stop for a second, remove the emotional aspect, look at what you just proposed logically and tell me that equation balances out. And remember your are actually talking in thousands not singles.

I'm as "serious as a heart attack", as Scott likes to say.

This should make all the sense in the world to you...and you said it. But I suspect it doesn't, which...frankly illustrates my point:

"take the extra 20% of the money I get up at 6:00AM 5 days a week and bust me a$$ for and spend it on the American product? During a recession?"

Yes...because it's made in the country you live in, and will ulitmately benefit you. And yes, especially in a recession, because that's our problem, nobody's buying things. And buying foreign things isn't going to do jack squat.

As to your second point. I agree; but it is incredibly difficult to beat your competitors when the rules of the game are slanted against you. I have no desire to see foriegn competition completely removed from the equation...I mean, it would be nice, but I don't want that. I want a fair, flat playing field. One that doesn't exist as evidenced by the lovely senators voting against the loans to the Big 3 because Toyota or Honda has a plant in their state.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Free markets are great, so long as everyone plays be the same set of rules. Unfortunately, Japan protects their automakers and Germany gives lots of support to theirs. In America, the govenrment passes laws that do what the should be up to the free market (CAFE). How about instead of instituting protectionist policies for the purpose of making life hard on imports, what about simply mirroring trade laws of other countries? If they open their market to our products, we would be open to theirs. But if they keep themselves closed, why should we be open to them?

Lastly, your sentiments about not buying American in a recession because its more expensive remind me of a saying: Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign!

[stratman]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Yes...because it's made in the country you live in:

Actually there is a good chance it isn't. Money coming back to an American company from a foreign made product isn't the same as a product produced in America and the money going to an American Company. As has been stated many times the Camaro is probably half import when you look at the development and eventual production. We can't go back to an isolationist mentality. That’s why we’ve been playing catch-up the last 15 or 20 years.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

As to your second point. I agree; but it is incredibly difficult to beat your competitors when the rules of the game are slanted against you. I have no desire to see foreign competition completely removed from the equation...I mean, it would be nice, but I don't want that. I want a fair, flat playing field. One that doesn't exist as evidenced by the lovely senators voting against the loans to the Big 3 because Toyota or Honda has a plant in their state.

I do think we are in agreement here. I just believe that as long as illegal practices are not being used all is fair in business. If you are being out done by a competitor you right the ship or perish. I just don't believe in rewarding poor business(be it bad product, bad advertising, loss of touch with customers or just bad business practices). And to be clear these opinions are purely about buying American just to buy American. I am all for the Government assistance loans to the big three.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by stratman

Actually there is a good chance it isn't. Money coming back to an American company from a foreign made product isn't the same as a product produced in America and the money going to an American Company. As has been stated many times the Camaro is probably half import when you look at the development and eventual production. We can't go back to an isolationist mentality. That’s why we’ve been playing catch-up the last 15 or 20 years.

Not quite on the Camaro part...50% is a stretch. Perhaps by volume, but not value. Still, the fact is that GM designed it, made it, and sells it...where, I don't care because it's all GM. And GM is so tightly routed in this country, the whole car could be made in China and we'd still see that little prick of benefit.

Anyways, I don't think there's been any significant isolationism in the past decades. Instead, and more likely...the direct opposite has been and is currently happening. We're taking part in the fluffy, everybody's a winner, "Global Economy". Yet....as most other developed countries are securing their place in the market...safeguarding their workers, companies, and economies...we're whoring ourselves out under this misguided belief that we are in this perfect, non-manipulated "free" market...we are blind to the wrongs that are being done to us...either that or we don't care. The auto Industry is just a part of this...a big part.

Originally Posted by stratman

I do think we are in agreement here. I just believe that as long as illegal practices are not being used all is fair in business. If you are being out done by a competitor you right the ship or perish. I just don't believe in rewarding poor business(be it bad product, bad advertising, loss of touch with customers or just bad business practices). And to be clear these opinions are purely about buying American just to buy American.

Then, by that philosophy, instituting mild protectionist policies is "all fair in business".

Did you know that the Japanese government funded the majority to 100% of the Prius hybrid system? (exactly how much is unclear) That's why Toyota can sell it for so little compared to other hybrids...has the Prius given Toyota a competitive edge?? ...the fact that it's a Toyota and a Prius isn't the point. The point is that countries' governments are supporting their Industries. They are doing everything they can to prop them up because they seem to understand that they're important...and we here in America are shunning our companies because they can't keep afloat of the flood we're causing. I love my country to death, but we've got our priorities frikin' mixed up.

[stratman]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Not quite on the Camaro part...50% is a stretch. Perhaps by volume, but not value. Still, the fact is that GM designed it, made it, and sells it...where, I don't care because it's all GM..

Not sure what you mean by volume and value. What I mean is Americans employed by the development and production of the automobile. I understand it is an American Brand that reaps the final reward but they also have to pay out a substantial amount of that reward to foreign parties. I think we just philosophically disagree on this point. And as two Americans with the freedom to do so, that's cool with me. Always up for some good discussion

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Then, by that philosophy, instituting mild protectionist policies is "all fair in business".

Did you know that the Japanese government funded the majority to 100% of the Prius hybrid system? (exactly how much is unclear) That's why Toyota can sell it for so little compared to other hybrids...has the Prius given Toyota a competitive edge?? ...the fact that it's a Toyota and a Prius isn't the point. The point is that countries' governments are supporting their Industries. They are doing everything they can to prop them up because they seem to understand that they're important...and we here in America are shunning our companies because they can't keep afloat of the flood we're causing. I love my country to death, but we've got our priorities frikin' mixed up.

Mild protectionist policies is a big difference from comments previously made. Sure you can tax/tariff and regulate to an extent but to make an over the top effort to make business impossible for the foreign market is not right. The American government is not a competitor. They make rules for competition. And slanting those rules toward one competitor is not right to me. Even if others are doing it. Government investment in the development of products is great. That is what the original $25 billion dollars was for. Development of energy efficient next generation automobiles. We shouldn't attack other countries for doing a better job of supporting their auto industry.

Now I need to get back to work before I get fired for excessive Internet use in visiting this site. I don’t want to be the person that starts that blog.

[BowtieGuy]

You have contradicted yourself so much in the past three posts I have no idea where you stand.