Tesla Motors - 100% Electric Vehicle

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by alrox

Who says they had to charge at night? What if I need to charge my car during peak usage hours in the summer? There will be even more rolling blackouts then.

Yet another situation where the impracticality of electric cars shines through.

The vast majority of people work sometime between 6 am and 8 pm. There would be a minority that need to charge during peak hours, be it for work or because of trips made after going back home. So in those situations, yes the load on the system would increase. But it won't be in any meaningful numbers for decades, if ever.

[bigearl]

I'm not joining the fray except on an infrastructure note. The company I kind of work for gave us flyers with our last check. There are going to be designated parking spots for electric vehicles by the end of the year with plug in stations. More will be added if demand warrants. And if that's not enough-it's being handled under the company's commuting guidelines so it's free to users (I think the company may get a tax break). So that pretty much takes care of any infrastructure I might need in a commuter vehicle. I have a feeling other companies are ramping up to do something similar depending on demand.

[fielderLS3]

I won't go into the infrastructure issue (the grid, battery recycling, etc..) because the issues with the car itself are more than enough to keep me from buying it.

1. That 230 miles of range probably comes under such idealized conditions that a Camaro SS would get 40 mpg under the same "conditions." The actual practical range is probably half that at best.

2. If I ever had to travel anywhere, I would have to have a second car.

3. For the money, I could have a second and third car, both of which could be faster, more comfortable, and more durable, and still have enough money left over for gas for the whole life of the cars.

4. I'm not going to buy a car anytime soon from a manufacturer that tried hard and failed miserably at developing a 2-speed transmission. With those kinds of engineering resources, it kind of makes you wonder how good the rest of the car will hold up.

Until the above issues are dealt with, electric cars aren't going to have much of a presence. Sure, a few people will buy them, but they will have "novelty car" status. And as with all novelties, the novelty tends to wear off if you have to live with it every day. (think Smart Fortwo).

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Two points, when those 10,000 go on the grid at night, it is off peak hours. So shouldn't the grid be more than capable of handling that?

My guess is that most people will plug the car in the second they get home at 6:00PM and that's still in peak hours. Everyone will be running their lights and playstations and big-screen TVs at the same time.

The Volt does NOT charge the batteries with the ICE. It sustains the charge at the minimum level. The expectation is that it is far cheaper for the customer to charge the battery on the grid at night than by using gasoline. This is called "charge sustaining mode" on the Volt. So the electricty to run the Volt comes from the ICE, but it does not supply surplus power to recharge the battery.

I guess they didn't get it quite right either. There should be a mode to recharge the battery (from the gas engine) to a level that you can drive the car with if the battery goes too low. Unless they can drive the car purely off the generator, this seems like a good idea.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by Nycteus

Not exactly sure what "45 Minute QuickCharge means," but the 1 minute battery swap may be a proposed solution to charging stations. My guess is to think of a propane tank (gas grill), you can either exchange for a new battery or drop off for a service/fill.

Lithium Ion batteries don't "quick-charge" under any circumstances. They charge at a specific rate that starts off quickly charging and tapering off as they get more charge in them. The whole "Quick Charge" thing with rechargable devices is just marketing spin for a mode of charge that stops at 70% charge.

[BigRigMike]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

My guess is that most people will plug the car in the second they get home at 6:00PM and that's still in peak hours. Everyone will be running their lights and playstations and big-screen TVs at the same time.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/18/f...ystem-for-evs/

I guess they didn't get it quite right either. There should be a mode to recharge the battery (from the gas engine) to a level that you can drive the car with if the battery goes too low. Unless they can drive the car purely off the generator, this seems like a good idea.

The Volt can run as far you want with a "dead" battery. You drive for 40 miles on pure electric power and then the gas engine kicks on. you can drive on forever as long as you keep adding gas. If you wanted you could drive the Volt everyday without plugging it in.

The point of the Volt is to have a car that run in electric mode for the majority of time that most people use a car, driving back and forth to work, and then plug it in at night. But when you need to take a cross country trip you don't need a second a car because it will then use the gas engine to keep going.

[Captain Awesome]

[QUOTE=BigRigMike;2065312]http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/18/f...ystem-for-evs/

First of all this is a change to the existing infrastructure, so by adding these ironically misnamed "smart" meters, you are making changes to the grid which I first said was not up to the task. The need for "smart" meters is proof that the grid sucks as it is.

Additionally, you become a slave to the plug at that point. You drive 30 miles home and plug in the car and it sits there waiting to charge itself. You realize after dinner that you left the loading dock door open at work. You hop into your spiffy EV to go close the door before the place gets robbed and realize your "dumb" meter has not charged the car. You have to override it and then wait a couple hours to go lock the door.

The Volt can run as far you want with a "dead" battery. You drive for 40 miles on pure electric power and then the gas engine kicks on. you can drive on forever as long as you keep adding gas. If you wanted you could drive the Volt everyday without plugging it in.

The other poster said that the gas kicks in to maintain a minimal charge on the battery. I was thinking of ther case where the gas engine couldn't propel the car and maintain the battery at the same time (driving at night with lights on and in the cold with the heat on and up a large elevation change. In this situation the battery would probably drain down to the point below minimum and would need to gas engine to charge it back to optimal level.

Do we know that the Volt can run from the gas engine alone?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

My guess is that most people will plug the car in the second they get home at 6:00PM and that's still in peak hours. Everyone will be running their lights and playstations and big-screen TVs at the same time.



I guess they didn't get it quite right either. There should be a mode to recharge the battery (from the gas engine) to a level that you can drive the car with if the battery goes too low. Unless they can drive the car purely off the generator, this seems like a good idea.

That may be a point of debate. The CHEAPEST way to recharge, and the GREENEST way to recharge is on the grid, not the engine. The Volt could easily be configured to do as you suggest, but it was decided with careful and long thought to configure it as it is.

So I have to disagree with "they didn't get that right". It's just not what you think it should be.

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

Lithium Ion batteries don't "quick-charge" under any circumstances. They charge at a specific rate that starts off quickly charging and tapering off as they get more charge in them. The whole "Quick Charge" thing with rechargable devices is just marketing spin for a mode of charge that stops at 70% charge.

Quick charging is being worked on to provide up to a 50% recharge in a "short" period of time. Could be a big improvment if you are in a pure EV and need an extra 20 miles of range to get where you are going.

[QUOTE=Captain Awesome;2065561]

Originally Posted by BigRigMike

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/18/f...ystem-for-evs/


Do we know that the Volt can run from the gas engine alone?

The ICE does not propel the Volt, only the electric motor does. The ICE is simply an on board generator that provides electricity to drive the electric motor.

[DGthe3]

[QUOTE=Captain Awesome;2065561]

Originally Posted by BigRigMike

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/18/f...ystem-for-evs/

First of all this is a change to the existing infrastructure, so by adding these ironically misnamed "smart" meters, you are making changes to the grid which I first said was not up to the task. The need for "smart" meters is proof that the grid sucks as it is.

Additionally, you become a slave to the plug at that point. You drive 30 miles home and plug in the car and it sits there waiting to charge itself. You realize after dinner that you left the loading dock door open at work. You hop into your spiffy EV to go close the door before the place gets robbed and realize your "dumb" meter has not charged the car. You have to override it and then wait a couple hours to go lock the door.



The other poster said that the gas kicks in to maintain a minimal charge on the battery. I was thinking of ther case where the gas engine couldn't propel the car and maintain the battery at the same time (driving at night with lights on and in the cold with the heat on and up a large elevation change. In this situation the battery would probably drain down to the point below minimum and would need to gas engine to charge it back to optimal level.

Do we know that the Volt can run from the gas engine alone?

Typically, a car only needs around 30 hp, maybe 50 in the worst case scenario such as what you describe. Odds are, the gas engine will be capable of producing in excess of 100 hp. Even after taking the inefficiency of the generator into account, there should still be plenty of power if needed. So yes, with a dead battery, you can still drive the Volt. Otherwise, whats the point of adding hundreds of pounds of engine, generator, and fuel?

[SuperFly03]

After 5 pages we've determined 2 two things:

1) Some people like EV's
2) Some people don't like EV's

Anyone else surprised?

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Quick charging is being worked on to provide up to a 50% recharge in a "short" period of time. Could be a big improvment if you are in a pure EV and need an extra 20 miles of range to get where you are going.

How is a 45 minute quick charge to get another 20 miles a big improvement? My current method of getting an extra 20 miles (pumping 5/8 of a gallon of gas) takes 4 seconds if the pump I stop at is slow.

[Nycteus]

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

How is a 45 minute quick charge to get another 20 miles a big improvement? My current method of getting an extra 20 miles (pumping 5/8 of a gallon of gas) takes 4 seconds if the pump I stop at is slow.

I don't believe the idea of the Tesla vehicles is to take on long drives. Everyone in this thread seems to think that people who buy Tesla's are intending to do cross-country trips and how it would be such a worthless car.

Your Rear-Wheel-Drive LS3 Camaro's are not meant to be driven on icy or non-plowed snow roads. Even in studded snow tires you're just going to sit there and spin all day. Your Camaro is not designed to be a silent operating vehicle, your camaro is not designed to reach 30+ mpg combined EPA fuel ratings.

So therefore, someone could make the equivalent argument (to the ones being raised in this thread) that:

• The Camaro is worthless in snowy or icy conditions and a 2nd vehicle would have to be purchased if you wish to drive in these conditions
• The engine noise would disturb neighbors particularly in city streets. Since X% of the USA lives in a city, it is impractical to be driving around waking everyone up in the middle of the night
• With cost of fuels and emissions becoming more important to the average consumer, it is impractical to have a vehicle that gets 16C/24H mpgs.

In short, slamming Tesla for not creating a vehicle that can go 500+ miles on brief fillups is outside of the scope of the vehicle. The vehicle is designed for 0% tailpipe emissions and is designed to meet and exceed the average range of daily driving. According to the EPA, we drive 10,500 miles a year (http://www.epa.gov/oms/climate/420f05004.htm) which after dividing by 365 we see about 29 miles a day.

Assuming that due to a huge marketing ploy, and for argument's sake the Tesla vehicles can only see 1/3 of what is advertised, they are able to reach 100 miles per day. That's still over 3x the amount that the average American drives a day.

So, to slam Tesla for not making a vehicle that is marketable to the average consumer at $50k? That's an unfounded opinion.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

How is a 45 minute quick charge to get another 20 miles a big improvement? My current method of getting an extra 20 miles (pumping 5/8 of a gallon of gas) takes 4 seconds if the pump I stop at is slow.

The answer is simple. If being green is important to you then the ability to stop and for example do some shopping or errands gives you an added 20 or more miles that is a huge deal.

If you have chosen a pure EV as your transportation, you have already chosen to have some added time and inconvenience to drive that vehicle. The added ability to "quick" charge would help with that transportation choice.

If you aren't going electric then you have made a differnt choice. Very little now or in the immediate future will be as quick, cheap or easy as gasoline. It's the most convenient way to transport and store energy.

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The answer is simple. If being green is important to you then the ability to stop and for example do some shopping or errands gives you an added 20 or more miles that is a huge deal.

I think it is very revealing of the position the green movement would have us all in that those who subscribe to that position need to have contingency plans for the times they are stranded in a neighboring city and can't get home.

What do you do if no one has a charging station waiting just for you to plug into. How green is it to run out of juice and have to call a flatbed truck that gets 8 mpg burning diesel to tow you home?