MERGED: Has anyone read this (bankruptcy) about GM?

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by fastball

We should blame William Durant for this mess..... Buick, Oldsmobile, and Cadillac were fine independent car companies before he bought them and created GM.

It's all Durant's fault!

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

Sure, it would be nice if people would buy GM, but they don't. They aren't because of cost, fuel efficiency, etc. People don't care about where the car is coming from, they care about how it fits their needs. America is losing that battle and has been for a while. I wish I could make excuses for GM but I can't.

As for these workers losing their jobs, I'm sorry, but I have little sympathy. Some people chose to goof around in high school and college and now they pay for it by having little to no job protection. You can't expect ANYONE to set you up for life, you have work hard and earn it. That right there is the major problem with his country, a lot of lazy people who just drag their way through life, whining that they don't get any brakes.




Offering another product choice is a lot different then attacking our country. Not a very fair comparison.



I work on skills that will be valuable everywhere, not just here. If American companies start providing products that are superior, they won't have any problems either.




I'm buying a Camaro SS...but not because an American company makes it. It's the best car for the $ that suits my needs...and I think the car is going to do well because of it. Build a quality product that beats the competition and you'll do well.

First -- Chevy makes more cars that get over 30mpg than anyone.......

MORE than Toyota
MORE than Honda

MORE THAN ANYONE......(go look it up!)


Compare our fuel economy apples to apples with Toyota -- and then talk to me...........

(the Tahoe 2mode Hybrid has similar city fuel economy to a Toyota Camry -- yet it can carry 8 passengers - -comes with 4wd as an option -- and far outperforms the Camry with a 5.3 liter engine....)

Next -- go do a price comparison between -- oh - say a Malibu and an Accord and a Camry -- and then go price a similarly equipped Impala - -the Chevrolets are a bargain and they have a longer warranty.............

As to the remark about some people goofing off in high school -- .............no job now......I hate to be the one to break this to you, but there are many many many many many very educated people out there that are unemployed..........

.........and trust me -- the Dayton area is gonna feel it when Moraine Assembly closes in December........


My comment about 1941-1946 was about how people in this country sacrificed so that we could win the war.

I'm not sure how old you are - but you may not be aware that Gas/Sugar/Rubber/Etc were rationed......people made all kinds of sacrifices so that the United States could win the war.

And win we did-- for many reasons - but one of them was

>>>>We outproduced them<<<<<

We DO offer products that are superior -- go look at the many studies that prove this..........


So............perhaps I can't convince you --

But I can assure you that if the American Public at large does not wake up -- and SOON -- what you see now is a walk in the park - -a veritable Picnic - as to what is about to come.

Sorry -- I don't make up the rules -

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

First -- Chevy makes more cars that get over 30mpg than anyone.......

MORE than Toyota
MORE than Honda

MORE THAN ANYONE......(go look it up!)

Next -- go do a price comparison between -- oh - say a Malibu and an Accord and a Camry -- and then go price a similarly equipped Impala - -the Chevrolets are a bargain and they have a longer warranty.............


My comment about 1941-1946 was about how people in this country sacrificed so that we could win the war.

I'm not sure how old you are - but you may not be aware that Gas/Sugar/Rubber/Etc were rationed......people made all kinds of sacrifices so that the United States could win the war.

And win we did-- for many reasons - but one of them was

>>>>We outproduced them<<<<<

We DO offer products that are superior -- go look at the many studies that prove this..........


So............perhaps I can't convince you --

But I can assure you that if the American Public at large does not wake up -- and SOON -- what you see now is a walk in the park - -a veritable Picnic - as to what is about to come.

Sorry -- I don't make up the rules -

This is exactly why the United States and Canada need to have lots of production facilities at home. Someday, we may be called to use those facilities in another dire situation. I'd hate to think today's third world would outproduce the land of the free. :flag2:

[MrKrisSullivan]

Bottom line now in the 21st century it's sad to say but people are buying foreign cars because they think there going to be more dependable... yes those chevy cars that were sited are very comparable cars, but after so many years people seem to think now that a foreign car someone how is more supperior in longevity than an American made one...
To selling lumber to China then buying furniture thats easy, we don't want to pay for the labor to actually make the furniture... That's how Rooms to go blew up, sad too...
And when it comes to furniture everyone knows that if it's made in America it'll last a lifetime... But people would rather buy cheap furniture and in the case of cars they think there buying the one with more life in the tank, in longevity that is

[Design1stCode2nd]

There are very significant reasons why people buy foreign makes. Many have had American makes in the 70's, 80's or 90's and knew how bad they were. After you buy a car or two that dies after the warranty is up you get fed up. Then after you buy a Honda or Toyota and it goes 150-200k miles without a hiccup you now have a loyal customer who tells his friends who gets one for his kids, and when they come due the next time they get the same brand and or model without even looking at anything else..

In the past couple of years GM and Ford have made some good products. The new CTS and Malibu are class leading and there are a few others but not that many.

Go drive a Dodge Avenger and tell me it's competitive to anybody else, well maybe Suzuki. Its crap. Even the Challenger has a crap interior. This is 2008 How can you offer a 4 speed transmission, how can interiors not be on par with your competition?

Case in point the Solstice. Fabulously beautiful car but flawed and not competitive with its main rival the Miata. Why is there no automated top, why was a saddle-bag gas tank not made to allow for cargo? How can you create a new car that does not exceed you existing competition? If you can’t then there is no reason to try.

The Japanese firms have continued over the yeares to refine, refine, try again and refine. Accord, Camry, Corolla, Civic, etc. Where is Ford’s Escort that beast the Civic? American manufacturers seem to always be looking for the next big thing, the hail mary that will save the company instead of having a wide product portfolio and refining the nameplates to make them ALL best in class. Aveo anyone……

Don't get me wrong. I want to see the big 3 succeed and be competitive. No not competitive but the best. I want to see Cadillac regarded again as the standard of the world. I just don't see it happening with a full chapter 11 restructuring and house cleaning.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

hmmmmmmmmmmmm........no one is forcing anyone to do anything of the sort.

We CAN provide the best products -- and many many many surveys show that we do.

I see you're from Dayton.

It will be interesting to see how the economy goes when the GM Plant closes there -- I'm wondering if you'll perhaps wish a few more people had bought a GM or Ford or Chrysler product........rather than, say, an Acura to provide Japan a boost to their economy............


And................I can assure you, sir, with the line....(and I quote you) "People are always going to make the best choice for them, not for their country.." -- if that had happened in 1941-1946, we'd be speaking German or Japanese.........

Do you like the standard of living we have had in the United States? If so, I gently suggest you think about that statement -- the one about (and I quote you)....."People are always going to make the best choice for them, not for their country"........

I'll quote someone on this site ( I saw it the other nite...) " ....it needs to be about "US" and not about "ME!......"

We need to work together to get out of the mess we find ourselves in. If you aren't scared beyond belief of where our economy has gone, you need to be! (and I'm not picking on you....rather, I'm trying to get you and many others to think 'larger'...)



I'm not telling you to buy GM -- but I AM asking you to consider GM -- and if you don't then please favor Ford or Chrysler for your transportation needs. (and yes, I note you drive a Neon - and I'm pleased it isn't a Honda or a Toyota!!!)

Scott, I think many people today aren't brainwashed by CR or unpatriotic, I think many of them are still jaded by an experience with an American car from the 1970's and 1980's. I have to admit, so was I after the junker of a Beretta I had (which we discussed in another thread..... remember that great peel and eat paint job those cars had?) I had essentially sworn off American cars and bought a 2000 Honda Prelude brand new in 1999.

Unlike most people, however, I remained open minded and continued to believe if GM built cars as good as Japan, I would buy one in a heartbeat. Well, the new Malibu, CTS, and of course this Camaro have convinced me. The problem GM is running into is that you haven't opened the minds to the vast majority of people who have sworn American cars off for good without looking at them today.

I think GM needs a massive add campaign. Not showing a Cobalt zipping around advertising a $199.00/month lease, but serious, direct, and point blank campaign. Something like this: Have Bob Lutz walk toward the camera with a 1959 Eldorado and a 2009 CTS-V on both sides of him. Have him point out that in the time those two cars had been produced, GM had lost their way in design and quality, but have gotten it back in a big way. I think you would open alot of people's ears who currently drive Toyotas if he said "over the past 30 years, GM has made product choices which have hurt you, our customer, and our beloved country. We admit what you might have owned 10+ years ago might not have given you the satisfaction you expected. We've also talked better quality in the past but didn't quite deliver. Well, those days are over at GM. Today, our engineering and design is second to none, with attention to details, reliability, and overall product quality surpasing what is offered from our competitors, foreign or domestic. We have the most sophisticated and highest quality assembly lines in the industry, and our engineers are the most brilliant we've had since (as he points back to the Eldorado) this classic was produced. We invite you to take a serious look at GM products. See what you've been missing."

I'm not a commercial writer, but I think something along those lines would go a long way in getting people back into GM dealerships.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by fastball

Scott, I think many people today aren't brainwashed by CR or unpatriotic, I think many of them are still jaded by an experience with an American car from the 1970's and 1980's. I have to admit, so was I after the junker of a Beretta I had (which we discussed in another thread..... remember that great peel and eat paint job those cars had?) I had essentially sworn off American cars and bought a 2000 Honda Prelude brand new in 1999.

Unlike most people, however, I remained open minded and continued to believe if GM built cars as good as Japan, I would buy one in a heartbeat. Well, the new Malibu, CTS, and of course this Camaro have convinced me. The problem GM is running into is that you haven't opened the minds to the vast majority of people who have sworn American cars off for good without looking at them today.

I think GM needs a massive add campaign. Not showing a Cobalt zipping around advertising a $199.00/month lease, but serious, direct, and point blank campaign. Something like this: Have Bob Lutz walk toward the camera with a 1959 Eldorado and a 2009 CTS-V on both sides of him. Have him point out that in the time those two cars had been produced, GM had lost their way in design and quality, but have gotten it back in a big way. I think you would open alot of people's ears who currently drive Toyotas if he said "over the past 30 years, GM has made product choices which have hurt you, our customer, and our beloved country. We admit what you might have owned 10+ years ago might not have given you the satisfaction you expected. We've also talked better quality in the past but didn't quite deliver. Well, those days are over at GM. Today, our engineering and design is second to none, with attention to details, reliability, and overall product quality surpasing what is offered from our competitors, foreign or domestic. We have the most sophisticated and highest quality assembly lines in the industry, and our engineers are the most brilliant we've had since (as he points back to the Eldorado) this classic was produced. We invite you to take a serious look at GM products. See what you've been missing."

I'm not a commercial writer, but I think something along those lines would go a long way in getting people back into GM dealerships.

Fbodfather, I do not share the history of swearing off GM as some others do, but I feel that this sort of blunt honesty by GM would make a lot of customers realize that GM is a better company than it has ever been. General Motors produces amazing products, and many customers are still hoping it dies for its old mistakes. Those are the people that GM desperately needs to disprove and convert. With an ad campaign like the one quoted above, I strongly believe that GM can begin converting those customers.

[playhard67]

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

As for these workers losing their jobs, I'm sorry, but I have little sympathy. Some people chose to goof around in high school and college and now they pay for it by having little to no job protection. You can't expect ANYONE to set you up for life, you have work hard and earn it. That right there is the major problem with his country, a lot of lazy people who just drag their way through life, whining that they don't get any brakes.

Why thank you for that massive generalization...my father has a bachelor's degree in economics. He was laid off from Norwood multiple times. Then GM shut the plant down. Luckily he was able to transfer up the highway to Delphi, but look what happened there...

Oh yes. He worked hard all right. So hard that it sent him to the hospital twice. Yet he still ended up having to take early retirement earlier than he wanted to.

And Scott's right, Dayton is going to go into economic crisis mode the minute Moraine is shut down. Do you remember what happened to Norwood when GM shut that plant down?

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Why thank you for that massive generalization...my father has a bachelor's degree in economics. He was laid off from Norwood multiple times. Then GM shut the plant down. Luckily he was able to transfer up the highway to Delphi, but look what happened there...

Oh yes. He worked hard all right. So hard that it sent him to the hospital twice. Yet he still ended up having to take early retirement earlier than he wanted to.

And Scott's right, Dayton is going to go into economic crisis mode the minute Moraine is shut down. Do you remember what happened to Norwood when GM shut that plant down?

My father worked 15 years for a growing advertising agency in St. Louis. He grew a creative department from 15 people to over 100, opened an office in Kansas City, and developed strong relationships with clients in the agriculture industry, including RoundUp and John Deere. His boss decided that he was too expensive and asked him to leave. He gave his professional career to a company to get screwed long after the headhunters left, so he had nowhere to go. He took pay cuts up to 25% to find a job that he's overqualified to perform. He went to college and did well only to get screwed.

I'm coming out of college in December. I've been on 5 interviews and have had no one talk to me since any of them. I've worked hard through school to build some impressive sales experience, but I'm going to get no job security out of school. What could I possibly have done differently? This market is terrible. I'm not responsible for it. I didn't take out mortgages that I couldn't afford, but I have to hope and pray that someone picks me up within a month of graduation or I can't afford to live. Do I deserve that?

I don't want to be mean or harsh, but not everyone who gets screwed gets screwed because they made a mistake.

[GTAHVIT]

OK everyone.

Deep breath. I can completely appreciate the heartfelt debate here. And am glad for the clarification provided by most of us here.

I truly acknowledge that you all have kept this heated conversation civil. Should this conversation continue along this path, keep it within the well established guidelines of this site.

Respectfully,

Chris

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by gtahvit

OK everyone.

Deep breath. I can completely appreciate the heartfelt debate here. And am glad for the clarification provided by most of us here.

I truly acknowledge that you all have kept this heated conversation civil. Should this conversation continue along this path, keep it within the well established guidelines of this site.

Respectfully,

Chris

I don't think anyone is mad. I think we just disagree over why people are losing their jobs. In any case, there's a lot of respect for opinions in this thread. The only one that seems to be hurt is playhard. Someone should get playhard some tissues. Gthavit used all of mine.

As I understand it, the issue currently being discussed is the role of education in job security.

[Scotsman]

My boss purchased a brand new Chevy S-10 years ago that basically blew up on him after only several years of ownership. For that reason he vows NEVER to buy a domestic product, and unfortunately I can't say I blame him, but that's not exclusive to the fact that it was a domestic. I believe, because it could have been any car. Point is when you buy a car (especially a brand new car) you have the expectation that it will work flawlessly, and when things go wrong (especially a complete engine failure) the experience can leave a real sour taste in your mouth. So much so you may never return to that car brand (reasonably) or any other make from that geographical region (especially if there's a reputation they have).

So as much as I'm for buying American products let's remember a few things:1) Domestic makes bring in tons of money from overseas operations and sales 2) Foreign competition has become necessary to build better product and provide consumers with the choice they demand. Now I'm not going to be ignorant and say something crazy like the domestics "don't matter" because that's simply not true; domestic automotive production accounts for a large portion of our GDP, not to mention the millions of Americans they employ. So lets support our domestic automakers and appreciate and respect the foreign competition.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Scotsman

2) Foreign competition has become necessary to build better product and provide consumers with the choice they demand.

Something I've learned from my involvement in the auto industry is to give credit where credit is due. If it wasn't for the imports, GM would still be throwing rebadge after rebadge on dealer lots, cars would be breaking down all over the place, fuel efficiency would be unheard of, and we wouldn't have cars like the Volt in development. If there's anything good that import companies have done for this country, it's giving GM and Ford a good slap to the face.