Gm needs to bring back the pontiac line

[HeatherR]

It's sad Pontiac is gone, but it had to happen.

It may have worked as a "niche brand" like they were planning pre-bankruptcy, but I have doubts at turning any kind of profit ever doing that...

LOVE my Solstice, and will keep it forever...but, like Fen said $$ was lost on every one they sold. I hated my 06 G6 GTP manual-kept it just over a year. So, really what was left and they couldn't continue to spread R&D $, marketing $, etc. thin over too many brands.

Lowdown I can tell you that when I lived in Canada I made a few observations....They loved Pontiacs, still bought those minivans and liked driving them, and like you said are such a small market. I also have never seen so many Mazdas as I did in Toronto. The market for Pontiac was really just US/Canada and no global markets that are much needed to turn a profit.

[HeatherR]

Originally Posted by OrangeFury

I hate to break it to you, but just because you didn't hear about something does not mean it isn't so. I do market research for GM. We were contacted in 2005/2006 to find what the costs associated with moving Buick out of everything we do would be, just as we did when Oldsmobile went away and more recently with Saturn/Saab/Hummer (Pontiac has not been removed as of yet).

They don't do this unless it is basically a done-deal and we were shocked when the plan was scrapped. Trust me, it got much further down the line than a simple rumor.

I'm sorry but I don't see a dressed up Aveo sucking up the void that is left...not by a longshot. I have high hopes for the Cruze, as that will be built in the Lordstown, OH plant where my father works and obviously my financial interests are tied to the sucess of GM, but I have my doubts about that one, too.

Pontiac was not a global brand. Buick is. That is what it boils down to.

So, because GM asked a market research company for a cost analysis you're saying eliminating Buick was a "Done deal"....even with the growth (and profits) for GM in China back in 05/06 and their history with Buick.

Are you calling the Cruze a dressed up Aveo? Have you sat in one yet? Trust me not a dressed up Aveo...And you're right that vehicle is critical to the success of GM.

[OrangeFury]

Originally Posted by HeatherR

Pontiac was not a global brand. Buick is. That is what it boils down to.

So, because GM asked a market research company for a cost analysis you're saying eliminating Buick was a "Done deal"....even with the growth (and profits) for GM in China back in 05/06 and their history with Buick.

Are you calling the Cruze a dressed up Aveo? Have you sat in one yet? Trust me not a dressed up Aveo...And you're right that vehicle is critical to the success of GM.

Where did I refer to the Cruze as a dressed up Aveo???

[HeatherR]

Originally Posted by OrangeFury

Where did I refer to the Cruze as a dressed up Aveo???

I wasn't sure-That's why I asked.

Your last paragraph you go from saying "a dressed up Aveo" to your doubts about the potential success of the Cruze.

I assume by your response that is not what you meant.

[OrangeFury]

Originally Posted by HeatherR

I wasn't sure-That's why I asked.

Your last paragraph you go from saying "a dressed up Aveo" to your doubts about the potential success of the Cruze.

I assume by your response that is not what you meant.

I was replying to someone who had earlier posted that an Aveo (which will have an RS package option) and the Cruze were possible options to fill in the gap left by Pontiac going away. When I said "dressed up Aveo" I was referring to an Aveo w/ the RS and how I don't think that is going to make a difference to people that used to drive Pontiacs. It's still going to be an Aveo and I seriously doubt that appeals to the Grand Am/Grand Prix/G5/G6 crowd.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by OrangeFury

I was replying to someone who had earlier posted that an Aveo (which will have an RS package option) and the Cruze were possible options to fill in the gap left by Pontiac going away. When I said "dressed up Aveo" I was referring to an Aveo w/ the RS and how I don't think that is going to make a difference to people that used to drive Pontiacs. It's still going to be an Aveo and I seriously doubt that appeals to the Grand Am/Grand Prix/G5/G6 crowd.

The new Aveo is a vastly improved model over the current one. The current one is basically the epitome of boring, sedate econoboxes whereas the upcoming model obviously has an aggressive, sporty character.

[PQ]

Pontiac never appealed to me. Even with the Firebird.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Yet, as DG3 can confirm, Pontiac stores, there, sold a damn sight more than "20%" as many units as Chev stores, across the line.

I don't think you understood what I was getting at (I probably didn't make it clear enough). There is a difference between total sales and a sales gain. A sales gain means that someone would not buy the Chevy but would buy the equivalent Pontiac. Lets say GM could manage to sell 160k Chevys along side 80k Pontiacs. Looks like a pretty good business case right? 80k more sales=good move. BUT of those Pontiac buyers, lets say half would have bought the Chevy if there was no Pontiac option. They like both cars, but they just like the dart better than the bowtie. So it becomes a sales gain of 40k units against a total of 200k (20%).

[GrnMchin]

Sad to see it go, but DG explain it, all dollars and cents.. Plus just because the name is gone doesn't mean the band is dead.. GM can't it this day and age afford not to make cuts. The future is bright they have done a ton better then I had hoped. Look forward and don't repeat the same mistake twice..

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I don't think you understood what I was getting at (I probably didn't make it clear enough). There is a difference between total sales and a sales gain. A sales gain means that someone would not buy the Chevy but would buy the equivalent Pontiac. Lets say GM could manage to sell 160k Chevys along side 80k Pontiacs. Looks like a pretty good business case right? 80k more sales=good move. BUT of those Pontiac buyers, lets say half would have bought the Chevy if there was no Pontiac option. They like both cars, but they just like the dart better than the bowtie. So it becomes a sales gain of 40k units against a total of 200k (20%).

And don't worry 'bout the 40,000 who WOULDN'T?!

Put another way, HALF the Pontiac People, who don't march over to Chev, are what? "Intenders"...who simply lost their way? More "collateral damage"?

You can "calculate" 6 ways to Sunday, but the sad fact is, "displaced" Olds and Pontiac owners will now represent a very significant number, in today's market, of (likely) lost opportunities for GM. And, as you know, it costs the Company AND Dealers a lot LESS, per customer, to SAVE/KEEP than it does to CONQUER...

It worked in Canada, post-WWII till now: Dealers = Sales, and specifically, a roughly equal number of Pontiac Stores sold very similar numbers compared to Chev, Fleet aside which, contrary to what's stated above, is still dominated by Chevrolet, within GM. Hell, some of our initial orders for Camaro were held up while they built the rental cars...more proof that the problems are GM's, NOT Pontiac's...

Reducing GM salespoints to more closely equate to sales/dealer of Toyota (the rationale used, NOT my imagination...) says more than some, here, would care to admit...

BTW, I think you'll find GM Canada was virtually always, post-WWII, a net contributor of PROFITS to GM, with veryvery few annual exceptions.

[FenwickHockey65]

The sad fact is that a good chunk of Pontiac sales were unprofitable fleet sales. No matter how you spin it, Pontiac had no future and no purpose with the new GM. It sold nothing more than cheap, redesigned Chevrolets at dealers that sold entry-level luxury cars and upscale trucks. The only way Pontiac could ever be salvaged was to reduce to to a niche brand that sold two or three products which is NOT what GM needs right now. The money used to redesign Chevrolets into Pontiacs and advertise Pontiacs can now be put to better use to build and advertise the remaining brands.

[LOWDOWN]

That's the rationale, Fenwick, along with trying to carve their dealer body down to a Sales per Dealer number more closely approximating Toyota...GM's logic, not mine...

I'm sure all those loyal Pontiacists will be heartened by your description of their previous buying decisions...

Remember, "What's good for GM is good for America".

Stay tuned...

[FenwickHockey65]

People on websites like this live in a dream world where everyone is defensively loyal to whatever brand. The truth is that the majority of Pontiac drivers on the road right now couldn't care less that Pontiac's gone, they probably cross-shopped between Chevrolet and Pontiac anyways. There is no denying that every Pontiac minus the G6 Coupe/Convertible, Solstice, and G8 were simply redesigned Chevrolets, and most were outright rebadges.

Letting emotions get in the way of common sense is not the way to run a business. And that's what GM is, a business.

[LOWDOWN]

If I told you my perspective is tempered by 32 years of flogging GM product, would that count toward any of my "insight"? I don't speak "theory", I speak "practise"...

I have raced, professionally, on GM's dime...

I have current contacts within the RennCen, who take my calls...

Pontiac was blindsided...in Detroit and throughout the land...

Buick, "almost", a couple years' back, until China caught fire...

You can rationalize ANYTHING...anything...

The fact is, there are 10s of thousands of former GM loyalists, from Divisions mow defunct, who will NEVER grace a GM doorstep again...for myriad reasons, not the least of which are some of these "rationalizations" you so heartily concur with...and neither you nor GM KNOW FOR SURE "what will be..."

As the Market moves forward, GM simply has fewer channels to sell through...which most certainly means a lower % of the Overall Market, regardless of its ultimate size. They may enjoy a higher margin on what they DO sell, but their total numbers will be LESS, overall...and their once-dominating position will NOT return...

Not because I say so, but because those silly Pontiac/Olds/Saturn/Hummer/SAAB owners WILL look/go elsewhere...