Buying American Made Harder than Necessary

[vsound]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

I guess that depends on whether it's a given that everyone with a college degree will be hired on as a teacher. If you do pay for a college degree but aren't able to get hired on as a teacher (or can't get on full-time, etc...), you'd be in worse shape.

I agree, though I don't know many who end up like that, being in education myself. It's currently harder than it used to be, but figures still show a ton of people are about to retire within the next three years, and even more jobs are about to open up.

People who don't get hired on also have the option of moving to a metropolitan area and almost certainly getting hired.

Basically, it's a pretty safe bet to get a college degree here, especially if you are realistic about what you are going to do with it. Figures show that the majority without them definitely end up below average, economically.

Edit: I'll say this, though. It's not what you know, it's who you know.

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

I'm concerned posting this thread that it will become a political discussion. If it does, I'm closing it without warning. Do not discuss politics in here.

GM is in the process of negotiating a contract with the UAW for a valvetrain plant in Michigan. The news in this story has little to do with the plant, the UAW, or even GM. The issue is much bigger than GM, and that is why I put this in the general cars section.

Here's the problem. GM could have just shuttered the plant, laying off expensive workers in favor of cheaper ones elsewhere. In light of bankruptcy, the best course of action would have been just that. At the risk of repeating history, GM decided to keep hiring American because it was the right thing to do. Afterall, GM is an American company with its traditionally best market in the US, although the last 3 months have all see better performance in China. GM wanted to hire American, and GM is still going to work to hire American.

The problem isn't GM. The problem is that the workers won't accept the cuts of $3 per hour and other snags in the deal. Before I criticize these workers, I'll point out that I would gladly accept any pay remotely close to what those workers make right now. I have a deferred college loan, no car, and live with family while I work at a job that does not guarantee enough to change my situation. If I could be in their shoes, I would take it in a heartbeat.

However, I'm not in their shoes. They don't want to lose their $3 per hour. Normally, you expect to make more over time, and that is rational thinking. These workers have missed the point. GM has no interest in hiring expensive workers that will bring it back to ruin when the cheaper alternatives won't underperform and likely won't protest. GM is in a winning position here, and the union elected to challenge that position. It's a stupid challenge.

As a buyer, I'd like to buy American, but I don't want to employ these idiots. I want to take their places. They're living a dream that shouldn't even be a dream: a job that pays the bills. It's a dream to me and to so many other unemployed Americans, and they're throwing away a lot more than $3 per hour by voting against this contract. They're throwing away their entire paycheck and the culture that we buy American.

What should GM do?

Article is by Automotive News. Discuss carefully.

Fire em. Hire people who will work for what GM can afford. Very simple.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by vsound

Figures show that the majority without them [college degrees] definitely end up below average, economically..[/U]

Not really. They're measuring employment figures only. Folks without college degrees tend to go into business for themselves, as most employers require college degrees for their better paying positions.

[Tomash]

Originally Posted by dbotsfordtat

I've said it before and I'll say it again; The free market is a figment of the imagination created by those that enjoy an unfair advantage and wish to maintain it.

I'm screenshoting this one. I agree, but no-one could expect it 10 or even 5 yrs ago to read such statement on american forum filled with fans of truly american things (i.e. muscle cars).

As for the topic -- I have quite a different perspective (hailing from Europe), but you can't call free market nor unions "evil". Most of these ideas work great as long as they're not abused.

Now, labor unions not allowing an almost-bankrupt (bought for government, i.e. yours, pals, money) company to make a small cut in wages, especially given the fact that workers are already over-priviledged (salaries, social benefits) compared to car factories of other companies, and not even mentioning tendency to offshore production -- well that seems like an abuse of the idea of labor union.

French companies were using (and still use) a very simple (but kind of brutal and assymetric) statement: either you -- unions -- agree to small lowering of worker priviledges, or we shut down the whole plant and move the production to China.

Sorry guys, but these are tough times and everybody has to participate if we're to get out of it.

Also: why "don't pick on working class" when we're talking about simple greed?

[vsound]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

Not really. They're measuring employment figures only. Folks without college degrees tend to go into business for themselves, as most employers require college degrees for their better paying positions.

You really expect me to believe that 90% of my town went into business for themselves? Really? Because that is the percentage of people without degrees here. No.

Listen, I'm not saying that a person won't make it without a college degree if they are intelligent and willing to work hard.

However, a lot of people without degrees end up working at grocery stores and Wal-Mart. I'm not knocking any of that, but I am saying you probably won't be able to gain a lot financially in those positions.

I just know I see this town every day, and it's pretty rough looking for people with no education.

[hot_rod]

WOW, this thread made for an intresting read from my prespective. I can relate to most everyones prespective and take on where we are in today's world.

A few random thoughts....

Welcome to the global economy. Freidman's book, The World is Flat, he talks about 10 specific flattners, outsoursing being one of them. The Walmart as a business/economics model. Use to be a good Wiki summary of it, if your intrested.

Remember being in a GM plant as a Tier 1 supplier around the time they were negotiating a labor contract and I asked one of the engineers I was working with why their management was agreeing to some of items in the contract, life time medical coverage, retirement benefits that were lavious to say the least, etc..? His reply was something to the effect of "......management doesn't care as long as is deferred and they get their bonus now. They know now that it's going to eventually bankrupt the company, but they won't be here." Greed and here we are.
Spent a couple of weeks in India for a plant start up. Everyone in the plant had at least a BS degree. Labor was so cheap why not get a highly educated workforce was their attitude. Most popular place at lunch for these employes was the plant library because they were all super competive and wanted to try and get ahead. Note I'm talking about a plant that's 90% machine operator / unskilled labor.
Last manufacturing job I did was with a medical device company. Spent couple of years moving operations to Juarez Mexico. First tour of the operations I asked the ops manager what his labor rate was "....wages and benefits...about $2.00 an hour..." Compete with that when you are making a labor intensive product, yeah,,,.
Retired for a while got bored and went to work at the university. I can understand the comments people are making about the cost of higher ed and is it necessary. One of our larger colleges is the Liberal Arts College. How do you making a living with an art, music or drama degree? Student worker in our office has racked up 15K of debt getting a music degree. Some of the upper classman/students, around the office are dumber than dirt and I wonder how in the heck did they made it this far?
Sorry for the long rant, subject matter is near and dear to me.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by vsound

You really expect me to believe that 90% of my town went into business for themselves? Really? Because that is the percentage of people without degrees here. No.

How would I know what your town looks like, or if you even live in a town? Is "your town" the unit of measurement everybody on this board has to use just to talk to you about this?

How about you stop being dramatic.

Originally Posted by vsound

Listen, I'm not saying that a person won't make it without a college degree if they are intelligent and willing to work hard.

However, a lot of people without degrees end up working at grocery stores and Wal-Mart. I'm not knocking any of that, but I am saying you probably won't be able to gain a lot financially in those positions.

So do a lot of people with degrees. Which ones are worse off?

Originally Posted by vsound

I just know I see this town every day, and it's pretty rough looking for people with no education.

Look closer. Its rough for people with education too. A degree isn't going to save you from tough times.

[vsound]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

How would I know what your town looks like, or if you even live in a town? Is "your town" the unit of measurement everybody on this board has to use just to talk to you about this?

How about you stop being dramatic.



So do a lot of people with degrees. Which ones are worse off?



Look closer. Its rough for people with education too. A degree isn't going to save you from tough times.

How about you back it up with figures? Find out your percentages, any population's percentages, and we'll talk. You may be right. There is nothing stopping you from being right about your town. In my position, however, these are my figures. You're welcome to share yours.

An argument with nothing but vague assumptions and demands is like firing a gun with no bullets.

Edit: I am going to go back and say this isn't even an argument. It's called a debate. This is what colleges are good for. They teach you to back up your facts. And even then, you can't say one thing is 100% better than something else.

[G8GT4now]

I too grew up in Flint.

I'd love for my home state to get plants reopened and for people to stay employed, but not at the cost of making GM uncompetitive in this global economy.

Not sure how having a college degree or not is really related to this, but I can tell you having a degree means very little in the work force. Lots of people graduate at the bottom of their class and are very useless. I'd take experience over new degree any day of the week.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by vsound

How about you back it up with figures? Find out your percentages, any population's percentages, and we'll talk. You may be right. There is nothing stopping you from being right about your town. In my position, however, these are my figures. You're welcome to share yours.

An argument with nothing but vague assumptions and demands is like firing a gun with no bullets.

Edit: I am going to go back and say this isn't even an argument. It's called a debate. This is what colleges are good for. They teach you to back up your facts. And even then, you can't say one thing is 100% better than something else.

Whatever, Mr. Sensitive. Don't say you weren't warned.

[monstertodd]

I'm 32, the only reason I'm going to college is to round out my skills and put myself ahead of all the NON college educated workers out there. Otherwise, I wouldn't even bother as I don't seem to be having trouble earning north of 100K.

A B.S. only tells an employer that you were mature enough, and dedicated enough to accomplish something for 4 years. It's a ticket in the door.

A Masters or doctorate makes you truly competitive.

On the other hand, I don't believe it's smart to base your entire financial picture on one particular skill set. I think it's smart to round out your educational picture........just like your financial investments. Even if you've lived your entire life earning good money on just your skills, it's never dumb to learn new things and acquire new certifications.

The whole college education vs non college education earnings is a moot point.

Specialized skills: I.E. doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists, polar bear wrestlers..............yes unfortunately, you guys/gals HAVE to go to college or you're not removing MY kidney, pleading my case, designing my bridge, whipping up the next cancer drug, or removing a rabid polar bear from my living room.

For the vast majority of jobs out there, you don't need a freakin college degree. A little on the job training, a few years of experience, you'll be good to go.

It's all about who you know. Military guys ask me all the time "how do I become a contractor?" I tell them "make friends with a contractor".

[oldfriend]

I think the union have a 20%, we [TAX payers]somewhere around 40%]and 40 to the banks ETC and the unions have about 6 people in the board .!!!!!

[riverrattcom]

Originally Posted by SleepWarz

GM should tell them to take the $3 pay cut before it becomes $5.

[8cd03gro]

America is greedy and stupid. It is NOT and never has been a good idea to live on loans. The banking system screws us completely and we all fall into it thinking, "I make 60k a year, I can afford to live in a 200k house and drive a 40k car." People pay off loans with credit cards and lose their jobs to go into debt they will never pay off. It is a cycle that can only lead to problems. It is apparent even more here in Detroit than anywhere else. I volunteered with Habitat for Humanity all of last summer and half of the houses we built had satellite dishes on top and not-so-old Cadillacs in the driveway within a month of being finished. If you basically have a house given to you, you don't buy a damn cadillac. It's disgusting what people think they "deserve" in the United States and the UAW consists of many of the worst of them. How many UAW workers didn't even go to college and make 80k a year (including all the benefits) putting bumpers on a damn assembly line? It's absolutely disgusting. The UAW thinks they are going to be changing their lifestyle too much by giving up pay, but they just don't seem to want to accept that if they don't give up some pay, they will get NONE! GM is dying quickly and everyone needs to wake up! Our lifestyle in the US is just crazy. Lazy motherf***ers with no intelligence whatsoever live it up compared to at least 50% of the world's hard working people. Everyone thinks they are entitled and everyone wants a handout. What you give is what you get and when half the country is kickin' back on welfare and the rest are relying on unions to get them wages that are way too high, our economy is going to die. It starts with the worst, most "entitled" groups. UAW and Wall street. That is not to say they are all bad, but there are plenty of rotten apples and it sure as hell isn't the fault of the little guys. These problems are ultimately caused by greed in the higher ups, more specifically government and corporate, but oh that's politics