"Toyota: It's Getting Even Worse"

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

And, of course, that's an undeniable "truth"? Because it's posted on the 'net?!

You can bet your 2SS there's ex-Gov't officials in a Lobbyists' offices or some other "places of influence", working on behalf of the Detroit 3...GUARANTEED!

It's simply "the way the world works..."

Unless you can somehow disprove what The Fool has said, with a credible source (from which I'm understanding is the company's payrolls), then it is in fact the "undeniable truth."

Of course there is ex-government officials in all of the automakers. However, none related to the safety of the vehicles are working for any automaker besides Toyota. Toyota is hiring officials to influence their old colleagues so they don't have to issue recalls, despite the evidence in front of them that suggests injury, or even death.

[LOWDOWN]

...and IF there is "no one" formerly of NHTSA "directly" on a payroll means exactly WHAT?

"Influence" is not predicated by a direct, personal pecuniary relationship...that's the field of play for Lobbyists and Lawyers and Manufacturer's Associations... ALL perfectly "legal" under current "rules" established by the American Federal Government, under whose domain "vehicle manufacturing and safety standards" were created and are enforced.

NHTSA was after GM to supply "certain information" last year over the "Cobalt Steering" issue. It wasn't until AFTER the matter was made public, last month in Congressional Hearings, that a subsequent "recall" was issued...

While NHTSA investigators went to Toyota City in December and were given access to "certain information", this same "hospitality" was NOT afforded them by the Tech Centre in Warren...they had to wait for GM to "do their thing"...and AFTER this was mentioned in Washington, THEN there was a "recall".

[That's NOT an indictment of ANYONE, that's simply how it played out.]

source: C-SPAN

Does THAT mean GM is "wrong" for doing things the way they did? No one (so far...) has been killed by "Cobalt Steering", but there have been injuries sustained. Does THAT mean a different measuring stick can be used?

Who/what defines "the process"? Who "enforces" it? How do you "prioritize"? When? Why?

NHTSA...a.k.a. the American Federal Government...is the "guardian of the gate".

There are simply "no easy answers". Pulling a couple of "apparent" e-mails, out of context, does not necessarily prove a "smoking gun" REGARDLESS of who you "think" may be holding it. And just because someone collects a paycheck from a "certain source" makes them neither "innocent" nor "guilty" of anything other than being "gainfully employed".

"Staging" by ABC and Brian Ross, is not helpful, just as it wasn't with the C/K fuel tank issue years ago. "Replication", in whole and/or in part, may or may not "solve" the issue(s). Different time and/or place.

In this modern world of ECMs and BCMs and vehicular complexity, and "market pressures", and "consumer rights", there are still situations that arise with no discernible explanation from time to time. Witness service issues with intermittent problems that all Techs at all Dealerships deal with... No "tell-tale" symtoms present...electronically, or otherwise. "Problem" persists...

Out of benign neglect? Out of malice? Out of greed? Out of malfeasance? Because "we know/pay someone to hide our sins"?

Not hardly...

The "court of public opinion" tends to serve those best who already "know the answer"...regardless of "what comes after".

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by a_Username

Toyota is hiring officials to influence their old colleagues so they don't have to issue recalls, despite the evidence in front of them that suggests injury, or even death.

And YOUR proof is...???

Again, cuz someone on the 'net (perhaps nom-de-plume'd as FOOL??) sez it is?!

Statements like the above could get you in a heap o' trouble, boy... Look up "slander" and "defamation" under google. Go ahead...I'll wait...

Sometimes 1 + 1 = only 2, not the 3 or 4 or 5 or 10 you're surmizing...

[Brokinarrow]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

And YOUR proof is...???

Again, cuz someone on the 'net (perhaps nom-de-plume'd as FOOL??) sez it is?!

Statements like the above could get you in a heap o' trouble, boy... Look up "slander" and "defamation" under google. Go ahead...I'll wait...

Sometimes 1 + 1 = only 2, not the 3 or 4 or 5 or 10 you're surmizing...

Oh GOD it's "this guy" again. Why does he ALWAYS have to "type" like this?

As for 'slander' and 'defamation' this was already posted by a news article. If it's untrue, they are the ones who will be sued for it. Not the readers for quoting what the news article said.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

And YOUR proof is...???

Again, cuz someone on the 'net (perhaps nom-de-plume'd as FOOL??) sez it is?!

Statements like the above could get you in a heap o' trouble, boy... Look up "slander" and "defamation" under google. Go ahead...I'll wait...

Unless the slander and defamation policies cover casual conversations (which I'm fairly certain they don't)...he doesn't need to look up anything. Please calm down and resist getting so defensive over this.


Oh, and there is no proof. It's called "probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion" and is a VERY common attribute to casual conversation like this. We're not in court. Besides that, I'm fairly certain his reasoning is that toyota is a dirty company (based in fact) and no other automaker has hired folks from this agency before. What do you think they hired'em for? Excellence in Ethics?

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

And YOUR proof is...???

Again, cuz someone on the 'net (perhaps nom-de-plume'd as FOOL??) sez it is?!

Statements like the above could get you in a heap o' trouble, boy... Look up "slander" and "defamation" under google. Go ahead...I'll wait...

Sometimes 1 + 1 = only 2, not the 3 or 4 or 5 or 10 you're surmizing...

My claim was backed by a credible source. So your argument is again a conspiracy theory? That the government is trying to protect its interests in Chrysler/GM by ruining Toyota's reputation by using the mainstream media? Have you forgotten that it was the mainstream media that even granted Toyota its reputation for quality and safety?

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

...and IF there is "no one" formerly of NHTSA "directly" on a payroll means exactly WHAT?

"Influence" is not predicated by a direct, personal pecuniary relationship...that's the field of play for Lobbyists and Lawyers and Manufacturer's Associations... ALL perfectly "legal" under current "rules" established by the American Federal Government, under whose domain "vehicle manufacturing and safety standards" were created and are enforced.

NHTSA was after GM to supply "certain information" last year over the "Cobalt Steering" issue. It wasn't until AFTER the matter was made public, last month in Congressional Hearings, that a subsequent "recall" was issued...

While NHTSA investigators went to Toyota City in December and were given access to "certain information", this same "hospitality" was NOT afforded them by the Tech Centre in Warren...they had to wait for GM to "do their thing"...and AFTER this was mentioned in Washington, THEN there was a "recall".

[That's NOT an indictment of ANYONE, that's simply how it played out.]

source: C-SPAN

Does THAT mean GM is "wrong" for doing things the way they did? No one (so far...) has been killed by "Cobalt Steering", but there have been injuries sustained. Does THAT mean a different measuring stick can be used?

Who/what defines "the process"? Who "enforces" it? How do you "prioritize"? When? Why?

NHTSA...a.k.a. the American Federal Government...is the "guardian of the gate".

There are simply "no easy answers". Pulling a couple of "apparent" e-mails, out of context, does not necessarily prove a "smoking gun" REGARDLESS of who you "think" may be holding it. And just because someone collects a paycheck from a "certain source" makes them neither "innocent" nor "guilty" of anything other than being "gainfully employed".

"Staging" by ABC and Brian Ross, is not helpful, just as it wasn't with the C/K fuel tank issue years ago. "Replication", in whole and/or in part, may or may not "solve" the issue(s). Different time and/or place.

In this modern world of ECMs and BCMs and vehicular complexity, and "market pressures", and "consumer rights", there are still situations that arise with no discernible explanation from time to time. Witness service issues with intermittent problems that all Techs at all Dealerships deal with... No "tell-tale" symtoms present...electronically, or otherwise. "Problem" persists...

Out of benign neglect? Out of malice? Out of greed? Out of malfeasance? Because "we know/pay someone to hide our sins"?

Not hardly...

The "court of public opinion" tends to serve those best who already "know the answer"...regardless of "what comes after".

Regarding your first two paragraphs, because everything after it seems to be rambling, you are right in saying they don't have to be directly associated with the company. However, its usually neither credible or easy to make a connection between indirect cases as you explained. This is true especially when comparing to being caught with ex-government officials on your PAYROLL. It's beyond a reasonable conclusion that they were hired because of their influence over NHTSA.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by a_Username

My claim was backed by a credible source. So your argument is again a conspiracy theory? That the government is trying to protect its interests in Chrysler/GM by ruining Toyota's reputation by using the mainstream media? Have you forgotten that it was the mainstream media that even granted Toyota its reputation for quality and safety?

"Credible source" is someone "named" FOOL, who may have foolishly paraphrased and wrongly interpreted a Bloomberg OP-ed piece? Have you read the entire Bloomberg piece, referenced? Op-Ed pieces are, again, OPINION...not "factual", necessarily.

"Conspiracy theory"? Not hardly...but your ASSUMPTION a former NHTSA employee(s) working for Toyota ONLY for their 'influence" potential IS a CONSPIRACY THEORY...well done!

"Mainstream Media"? Toyota's reputation was honed and polished by Car and Driver, Motor Trend, Road & Track, and Automobile magazines, with a healthy dose of Consumer Reports thrown in. In fact, Consumer Reports published an "apology", 2 years ago, for "assuming incorrectly" the new Camry would be "outstanding" even before they drove one, simply "based on their previous unsullied reputation" (I'm paraphrasing, but they DID retract...). Last time I checked, these publications are "specialty", NOT "mainstream"... Editorial content of "mainstream" is partially dependant on those from "specialty" sources (as references) actually being "impartial" and therefore "knowledgeable". Unfortunately, NO "media" ever is "impartial"...including this one...

The "facts" are, we do NOT have "all the facts", yet, to properly judge what is or isn't/was or wasn't done, by whom, and when. And, until we all do, this is another "Salem witch-hunt"...quick to judgement, with incomplete and inaccurate "facts" and "conclusions"...

NHTSA is the "guardian". I strongly suspect there is more "wrong" with the "process" than we currently "know"... And suggesting that ex-NHTSA employees have nothing to offer anyone else 'cept "influence" creates a certain "air" for all manner of conspiracies, right???

NO conspiracy on my part or, necessarily, on NHTSA's part...just a byproduct of a very complex issue covering very complex commodities. This issue (Toyota) unfortunately currently has a too-potent dose of "reactionary rhetoric" propogated by less-than-objective observers...


That's NOT a "conspiracy", that's a FACT!

[5thGenCamaroChick]

[Mr. Wyndham]

That's enough.
Too many "experts"...

*closed*