GM to pay back US & Canada loans in June

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

We can disagree. Sure sell the trucks. Even though the automotive world has known for at least 10 years they are dead ducks. There is only so much oil n the ground. But why weren't those GM executive geniuses investing the profits they were raking in on the super-gulp sized trucks making better cars? Those big trucks were very profitable. Instead they wasted the chance and left the biggest automotive company in the world with their pants down. Only sad Chrysler is worse off. And there are plenty of GM execs with golden parachutes who walked away from this mess tapping their heels before and after the financial crisis. It is the worker level men and women who get royally screwed who are now on food stamps.

GM upper management has ravaged what was the number one auto manufacturer in the world and has helped turn the US midwest into a wasteland.

All that being said I like the 2010 Camaro. There is some hope for the "new" GM. I just wish the roof was 2 inches higher and it was 2 hundred pounds lighter. But GM will never again be what it was.

Dead ducks? The Ford F150 is selling like hot cakes, and even though GM has had to close plants, the Full Size Pickup remains GMs number one seller.

I appreciate your opinion, Fraxum, I read it and hear it all the time. But it is basically 20/20 hindsight to say what they should have done.

If you were in business (maybe you are) would you have the ability to stop your most profitable product to go build cars fewer people want to buy and you make almost no money? This isn't Europe with $8 gas that allows all the companies to sell $30,000 Cobalts and Focusesss (Focii?).

So as you want to blame GM execs. Oh wait did you hear the one about all the execs that had been retired for years and had the pensions basically taken away? Oh no you didn't because you wouldn't have made your statements

Here is what happened. You may not want to hear the truth because it goes against blaming people.

GM once had over 400,000 employees in this country alone. GM was so big that in the late 50's the U.S. Government tried to break them up. GM ruled the automotive landscape.

Now comes the 70s and there are more and more and more foreign manufacturers wanting a piece of that pie. And Americans, loving free choice bought in. Market share started to tumble. Now you can fantasize about how great those cars were, but 1970s Toyotas and Honda weren't great cars. I won't argue better or worse, but they sure weren't great. Especially in the Mid West were they rusted to the ground.

Now this pressure, primarily came from Japan. Here are two main advantages that they had.

First, they did not have to pay health care to their employees or to their retirees. This amounted to about a $1,500 advantage for every car all things being equal. And the Japanese government, as they do today and China now emulates, controls the value of the Yen to favor their exports. This is arguably another $1,000 to $1,500 advantage per car. Now they don't have to do anything different, just sell an equal car and make pure profit of $2,500 to $3,000 per car. So with that extra money they can use their own (look up kieretsu) suppliers to keep even more profit in Japan.

All the while, GM is losing a little bit of market share every year. They have every year but 2 that I've worked here. And every one of those 400,000 employees is still getting Health Care and Pension benefits. To put that in perspective I think GM now has about 60,000 hourly and 20,000 salary employees. So the burden is basically a game to get that balanced. GM was paying for 3 retirees for every worker. Imagine you business case if you simply owned a lawn mowing company and had 3 workers sitting at home collecting pay and benefits for every guy working. So how do you keep that enterprise going? You have to keep selling your most expensive vehicles. You need cash flow. And that came from trucks.

So as an American, you whine about the downfall of the big 3 and blame managment all you want. This story has so many parts and you could probably teach many classes on business, sociology, government on it.

Now you could go back and say look at Ford. Well back in the late 70s and early 80s, Ford was laying off workers right and left. GM wasn't, they tried to ride it out. Probably not a good move in hind sight because thay gave Ford and advantage of their retiree to worker ration that was much better than GMs by the late 90s early 2000s. Their legacy costs and debt were far lower. Not because they were better or smarter, but because they laid people off years ago rather than hanging on.

So was GM stupid for always believing they could get back to ridiculous levels of market share? Maybe.

Look this is a tragic story for GM workers and families and for our country. But to blame "fat cat executives" as the only reason isn't getting at the whole story.

Why do you think we no longer have a textile industry in this country? Why do you think Big Steel lead the auto industry in this same downsizing? Why do we not have an electronics industry here? Heck we invented nearly every major electronic convenience, but for some reason we don't build any of them.

Again, I appreciate your thoughts on this topic. I know where it comes from. But the story is just wayyyyyyy bigger than what you want it to be.

[Shifty 6]

Originally Posted by DkknightX

Home run after home run, eh? Shall I break out the quotes from Jeremy Clarkson after he reviewed a Caddy CTS? Car was a toy with many craftsmanship issues and cheap, disposable parts for a country that embraces a "throw-away" economy. Hardly a home-run. Hopefully the attention to quality and detail can improve once we put all this behind us. I still say the composite metal on the Gen4 Camaro was far superior to the crap sheet metal we're getting on the Gen5.

Good grief man, watch the show once in a while. You can break out any quote you want from Clarkson, and the other 2 blokes for all I care. Can you honestly tell me those cars mentioned are inferior to ANYTHING in the price point? Have you even been in the CTS, much less driven one? If you want to make a point that those cars are not what I say they are, you can't find THE most biased person against anything American to support your point. Well I guess you can you just look like a fool doing it.


Fraxum....where to begin...

why are you stating you opinion as universal truth? Yes there was a 3-5 month period.....

Nevermind, I doubt it will be worth it.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Number 3

...

[FenwickHockey65]

I don't even know where to start with this thread...

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

On the other hand, they're making profit right now, or they wouldn't be able to pay these loans back (as they started to already last year)...and if, out of fear/caution, they held on the money....the longer they did so the worse PR it would bring.

All stories have two sides...and sadly, not all of them have happy endings.


Again...two sides to every story. What was his seniority? Did he stand out among his peers? Why was he let go?

As you should know, it wouldn't be the first time in their hyperkinetic history they've pi$$ed away profit$ for no good result...SAAB, FIAT and few other examples...

My point is, "It's ALL about Product!", and without money $pent wisely on New Product and proper launches, they'll quickly return to the trough...which will then be EMPTY!

As to "winning" or "minimizing" the P/R battle over handouts, that ship sailed the second they stuck their hands in Washington's/Ottawa's/Toronto's collective pockets...or was it ours?!

"Two sides"? Gosh I feel your empathy from here...

Muniga was hand-picked by Stefynyshyn after his reasonably successful efforts with the CTS Launch... "Two in a row, now you go..." Why? Why, indeed...

April's blood-letting was simply a "business decision" that even Wagoner knew was short-sighted...so he went too, when he wouldn't pull the trigger...

If you'd take the time to research some of this, and some of the stunningly excellent people who are now free agents, you too may come to a conclusion, which is...

Do NOT try to defend the indefensible...


...and fact IS facts...

My direct career history connected with GM transcends more than 30 years, from the heady days of 100,000+ Trans Ams per year...to NO Trans Ams...NO Pontiacs or Oldsmobiles of ANY kind...and, quite possibly still, NO GM...

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I look at the real slide as 82 when there were 4 A-bodies, 5 J-bodies and 2 F-bodies all sharing exact or similar sheetmetal. Then in 85, you had the downsizing of the Toronado, Eldorado and Riviera to nearly N-body size and shape.

Ah yes, the good ol' Roger Smith days...or was that daze...and then Ron Zarella's brilliant "It's ALL about BRAND" daze...

Oh really? Well, now they have a few less Brands to worry about...

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

I don't even know where to start with this thread...

Start with the original post ...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

If you'd take the time to research some of this, and some of the stunningly excellent people who are now free agents, you too may come to a conclusion, which is...

Do NOT try to defend the indefensible...

I have done research. I have spoken to many individuals at GM, including ones such as yourself you feel very...lets say "poorly" about the situation at large. I don't pretend to know all the facts, as no one should...because no one does. But I have come to my own conclusion after a long time in thinking about it:

The past is past. This is, literally, a new company. GM is on a very positive path towards growth, profit, and maybe even one day towards undisputed market dominance once more. The attitude is there, the "culture" is there, the products have been there, and the public is finally starting to wake up and smell the exhaust. (which, in the Volt's case, smells like roses) I choose to not be cynical or pessimistic...it's counterproductive, and annoying.

But I am not naive. There is much work to be done, and many more people to convince. It is far from this simple, but if I were to narrow it down to a single thing; I would say the key mistake they've made in the past, and the one they should avoid like the plague in the future is to get comfortable. There is no "adequate", "okay", or "fine". There is not even "good", "better" or "great". There is ONLY "best", and "perfect". These are unreachable, but the path towards those goals will yield results much like the vehicles they're putting out now, if not better.

As I did, and still do with the Camaro: I have Faith that my favorite Auto Company will continue to make me (a future stockholder) proud.

[LOWDOWN]

And, of course, they'll do that by banishing a recent Time Quality Dealer for Canada (ALL Makes and Manufacturers), who just invested, with GM's support/encouragement/financing, 9 MILLION DOLLARS in a state-of-the-art, you-have-to-build-'em-like-this-and-put-'em-right-here Pontiac/Buick AND a separate Saturn store beside it, less than a year old, in an Auto Mall in Canada's capital...the same capital that just gave GM 17% of the bailout money...

Gee, I wonder what the other side of THAT story is...oh yeah, potential bancruptcy...

National-winning Time Quality Dealers don't grow on trees...not even near the Love Canal...

As to GM's "new" culture and flourishing future, we'll see, so...stay tuned...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

National-winning Time Quality Dealers don't grow on trees...not even near the Love Canal...

And that would be a great example of "collateral damage". It sounds like, despite their performance and state-of-the-art-ness...they were a Saturn and Pontiac dealer....Saturn and Pontiac don't exist anymore...what's the issue here?

On a side note. Instead of haranguing them for incidents like this, lets point out all the underperforming individuals and dealers that they gave the boot. That was, after all, the point of the campaigns they ran. And anytime to trim a garden, you're gonna lose some good leaves...it's just a fact of life.

The end-result, however, is a thicker, healthier garden.

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

As to GM's "new" culture and flourishing future, we'll see, so...stay tuned...

Indeed we will.

[Number 3]

Oh, we're back to bailout again? LOL

Lowdown you are clearly angry about this...............and so am I. This has hit my household, my family and my friends in ways that I could have never imagined.

But what I hope you understand is it isn't one sided. It isn't just management as you keep inferring. It is every single employee. Even I ask myself what more could I have done? Did I make a mistake along the way? Could I have done better?

Is there a company that is flawless in it's leadership decisions? That has a history of perfect products, financial decisions and 20/20 forsight? Some, maybe. But none come to mind and if they are they are likely newer companies that don't shoulder the legacy burdens of older companies.

It litteraly became a race to hold out until the legacy cost "passed away". It simply became and enterprise that was in business to keep depositing pension checks and keep health care benefits flowing. And I agree, that does not make a healthy automobile company regardless of the leadership, regardless of the people, regardless of the product.

So now there are no more excuses. Internally we are told that the people have given us a chance to start over, to be free of the legacy costs and crushing debt. But we are also assureed there won't be another one. This is it, a one time proposition.

So yes, GM will pay back the loans. Mostly assured because of the cash in the bank easily covers it.

And yes, I predict the IPO will get a good chunk of the rest of the money for the the U.S. and Candien taxpayers and satisfy the VEBA.

But I can no longer afford to look back and try to find someone to blame. I merely accept that I was part of that time. I hope I do better, and I hope my company does better with this fresh start.

[LOWDOWN]

You're speaking out of BOTH sides of your mouth, here. NOT all the underperforming, no-good-for-nothing Dealers were Pontiac and/or Saturn Dealers...not by a long shot, And there's enough carping on this very Forum of "stealerships" selling Gen 5s at ridiculous price$ to prove that point.

So THESE GUYS are Government Motors' "future"?

God bless us all, Tiny Tim..

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

You're speaking out of BOTH sides of your mouth, here. NOT all the underperforming, no-good-for-nothing Dealers were Pontiac and/or Saturn Dealers...not by a long shot, And there's enough carping on this very Forum of "stealerships" selling Gen 5s at ridiculous price$ to prove that point.

No...actually, you put words in my mouth. I did not say that. What I said was the example you provided was of a Pontiac/Saturn dealer. And in a separate breath and thought, highlighted the point of getting rid of dealers "in general". I thought that was clear, I apologize if it was not.

The dealer markups are a separate issue, besides the point, one I'm split on personally...

And I would expect someone who's so emotionally involved/passionate about this would at the very least do them the service of calling them by their proper name: "GENERAL MOTORS".

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

You're speaking out of BOTH sides of your mouth, here. NOT all the underperforming, no-good-for-nothing Dealers were Pontiac and/or Saturn Dealers...not by a long shot, And there's enough carping on this very Forum of "stealerships" selling Gen 5s at ridiculous price$ to prove that point.

So THESE GUYS are Government Motors' "future"?

God bless us all, Tiny Tim..

If a dealership is about to lose 65% of its volume as a Ponitac/Buick dealer it doesn't matter how good they are at selling cars, you're not going to survive.