GM to pay back US & Canada loans in June

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Number 3

And I am really curious as to what you base the Gen 5 sheetmetal not being up to snuff. The gap and flushness of the panels is so far superior to a Gen 4 it just isn't even close.

It's a darn shame nobody has documents explaining/showing the trouble they went through to stamp out those rear-quarters.....isn't it?

The 5thgen is probably one of the most advanced exhibits of sheetmetal-working GM has put out to date...barring the hydroformed Kappa hoods...

[DkknightX]

Originally Posted by Number 3

40 years? Maybe not that long. That, at least for me is dabatable. I look at the real slide as 82 when there were 4 A-bodies, 5 J-bodies and 2 F-bodies all sharing exact or similar sheetmetal. Then in 85, you had the downsizing of the Toronado, Eldorado and Riviera to nearly N-body size and shape. Yes, there were some precursors to that, but that was the begining of the product slide. Keep in mind in the late 70's, GM still had a very credible mid-size car portfolio. IMO

It's tough to understand unless you've lived in Michigan. Having a job at GM, Ford or Chrysler is looked at the top tier. It would be like playing for a Major league team and then they may be at risk so you decide you'll just jump down to AAA ball. You don't just go look for another job because things look risky and tenuous. Even with the hack to our pensions, elimination of health care post 65 there isn't really a better place to work in our state. Going to a supplier has always looked at as a subserviant job. You would now have two bosses basically, your company and one of the OEMs. Yes there is a little bit of movement BETWEEN OEMs, but it doesn't happen often. So looking out for yourself just doesn't apply. You still have some pension so jumping to a company with little or no pension is a choice for the kids that hired in after 2001. They have no defined pension or benefits. So for them to move is likely. Just haven't hired too many that age lately.

Your point is well taken, it just doesn't apply when you can't slide over to an equal job. You wouldn't go take less pay and benefits just in case you could lose your job. And in Michigan, the job market has been much worse than the rest of the country for many years now, so any real opportunities required relocation.



That would be the same Clarkson that couldn't say enough good things about the CTS-V when they came over and drove the CTS-V, ZR-1 and the Challenger. And oh, in case you havn't noticed, he is always bashing anything American. I find him amusing most of the time, but need to keep a grain of salt handy. LOL

And I am really curious as to what you base the Gen 5 sheetmetal not being up to snuff. The gap and flushness of the panels is so far superior to a Gen 4 it just isn't even close.

Not the fit of the paneling. It looks much cleaner and sleeker than the Gen 4, but I'll tell you when my mother backed into my door when it was wide open, it didn't bend like twisted metal. I could actually see what appeared to be fiberglass particles mixed in with the metal. It was actually pretty amazing to watch. If that was my Gen 5 , it feels like it would just fold up like a tin can, in theory mind you. Thank you for replying #3. You really are a stand-up guy and know a lot about your field. I mean that. No sarcasm.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by ChevyTech

• GM commits to paying back US and Canadian government loans by June

DETROIT – Edward E. Whitacre, Jr., has agreed to continue as chairman and CEO of General Motors, it was announced today.

Speaking at a press conference at GM’s headquarters, Whitacre also expressed the GM board’s commitment that the company will pay back in full the U.S. Treasury and the Canadian and Ontario government loans by June.

Whitacre’s appointment reflects GM’s progress since the new company was formed last summer. “The board of directors asked if I would be willing to stay on at GM and help continue the company’s road back to success,” Whitacre said. “Having spent the past few months learning the business, meeting with our employees, customers and dealers, and working with the GM leadership team, I was both honored and pleased to accept this role. This is a great company with an even greater future, and I want to be part of it.

“We’ve made significant progress in the past couple of months, so much so that I can confirm with certainty that we will pay back in full the U.S. Treasury and Canadian and Ontario government loans by June,” Whitacre said. “This represents a significant milestone in our journey back to being a profitable and viable company.

This is great news

[5thGenOwner]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Well, all conspiracy theories aside...the good news for you is: THEY HAVE!

It just seems fishy to me. The banks didn't come out in advance and announce to the public (loudly) when they were going to pay the 'loans' back. They came out the day or week of paying them back and said "we paid them back".

I too want the government out of the car business ASAP, but I don't think its a conspiracy theory to wonder why would a brand spankin' new CEO of a company have to announce something that won't be complete for 6 months? Why not just say GM is back on the right track, and we plan on paying back the 'loan' in the near future. But there are too many affirmations in this... too many postitively going to's...

Sorry, I don't run on conspiracy theories... I run on common sense, and this story doesn't make any.

Originally Posted by Brokinarrow

Cool sig by the way.

Thanks! (I take no credit, it was all the Camaro... I just hit the button on the camera)

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 5thGenOwner

It just seems fishy to me. The banks didn't come out in advance and announce to the public (loudly) when they were going to pay the 'loans' back. They came out the day or week of paying them back and said "we paid them back".

I too want the government out of the car business ASAP, but I don't think its a conspiracy theory to wonder why would a brand spankin' new CEO of a company have to announce something that won't be complete for 6 months?

Sorry, I don't run on conspiracy theories... I run on common sense, and this story doesn't make any.

The banks didn't get loans

[5thGenOwner]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The banks didn't get loans

Semantics...

I don't believe neither the bank bailouts nor the auto industry prop up can be called true loans... which is why i put the word loan in ".

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 5thGenOwner

Semantics...

I don't believe neither the bank bailouts nor the auto industry prop up can be called true loans... which is why i put the word loan in ".

Hardly semantics to me. You don't have any obligation beyond your own conscience to pay back a handout (bailout). Loans are expected (and required) to be payed back, unless special agreements are made.

[5thGenOwner]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Hardly semantics to me. You don't have any obligation beyond your own conscience to pay back a handout (bailout). Loans are expected (and required) to be payed back, unless special agreements are made.

First... all the money came from the same place... TARP. It was all intended for banks, but it went to the auto industry just the same.

Second... the president just announced his plan for a BANK TAX to get back the bailouts. I believe this administration feels that the banks are obligated to pay them back. (hell he wants banks that have already paid it back to pay more)

Finally, regarding the GM prop up... I seriously doubt the governments ever expected to get that back. GM and Crystler went into bankruptcy after the 'loans', which means we can't pay our bills even with the money you gave us.

Edit: I believe it was the bankruptcy that saved GM, not the 'loans'.

I'm sorry this thread degrated to this, but thank you for hearing what I have to say.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 5thGenOwner

First... all the money came from the same place... TARP. It was all intended for banks, but it went to the auto industry just the same.

Second... the president just announced his plan for a BANK TAX to get back the bailouts. I believe this administration feels that the banks are obligated to pay them back. (hell he wants banks that have already paid it back to pay more)

Finally, regarding the GM prop up... I seriously doubt the governments ever expected to get that back. GM and Crystler went into bankruptcy after the loans, which means we can't pay our bills even with the money you gave us.

Edit: I believe it was the bankruptcy that saved GM, not the 'loans'.

I'm sorry this thread degragated to this, but thank you for hearing what I have to say.

All the money came from taxes (and loans from other countries). If you need money, and I say "here, take $5000 don't worry about paying it back" then I turn around and give someone else $50 bucks and tell him to pay it back does not change the fact that one is a freebie and the other is a loan. The source has nothing to do with whether its a loan of a freebie. It affects how you may personally feel about it, but it doesn't affect the definition of the terms.

Obama instituting a tax ... thats getting too close to politics for my comfort. But it sounds like he's trying to get back the money that Bush gave the banks, and that they subsequently spent on things like executive bonuses for screwing things up.

[5thGenOwner]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

All the money came from taxes (and loans from other countries). If you need money, and I say "here, take $5000 don't worry about paying it back" then I turn around and give someone else $50 bucks and tell him to pay it back does not change the fact that one is a freebie and the other is a loan. The source has nothing to do with whether its a loan of a freebie. It affects how you may personally feel about it, but it doesn't affect the definition of the terms.

Obama instituting a tax ... thats getting too close to politics for my comfort. But it sounds like he's trying to get back the money that Bush gave the banks, and that they subsequently spent on things like executive bonuses for screwing things up.

I appreciate the defining of terminology, but with your focus on just 1 word, I believe you are missing the bigger picture.

My point was that there was no reason for a basically brand new CEO to tell us that the money will be paid back by June. (Is this the terms written in the 'loan'?) I don't even know if Whitacre will still be the CEO come June.

I compared it to the banks because there was no 5-6 month advance notice when they paid it back. (paid it back just like a loan)

Edit: Here's an interesting link... http://www.financialstability.gov/im...nsactions.html

Your statement about Obama and Bush... you're right, your politics is showing.

Edit #2:
...I just want to add... for you and me, regarding our money, I do agree there is huge difference between a loan and giving money out. Although we are not talking about an individual, nor are we talking about an individual's money. Just as you stated, we are talking about governments giving out tax payer and/or borrowed (from foreign countries) monies, which essentially becomes the tax payers burdon (if not paid back).
...My point being... if you or I ran our household like one of these governments, we'd be broke and probably dead... they play by different rules.
...So when something that has no reason for being said, is said... I wonder why? Anyone taking bets that this is in a speech tomorrow?
...Oh now, my politics is showing.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by DkknightX

Not the fit of the paneling. It looks much cleaner and sleeker than the Gen 4, but I'll tell you when my mother backed into my door when it was wide open, it didn't bend like twisted metal. I could actually see what appeared to be fiberglass particles mixed in with the metal. It was actually pretty amazing to watch. If that was my Gen 5 , it feels like it would just fold up like a tin can, in theory mind you. Thank you for replying #3. You really are a stand-up guy and know a lot about your field. I mean that. No sarcasm.

Good discussion. One other best things about Camaro5 is that we can have them and stay appreciative other opinions. Gets away sometimes, but I always feel like we can share ideas here.

Thanks!!

Oh and if memory serves, the Gen 4 cars had SMC doors like the Corvette. The 4th Gen cars had some metal and composites depending on the panel. I believe the hatch was SMC as well.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Fraxum, where do you get this?
First of all everyone seems to think that GM should not have been making trucks. Trucks make money..............they still do. So as a shareholder you wanted GM to make less money? That makes no sense.
"Faithful" shareholders? When did that ever mean anything. You had a chance to get out at any point you wanted. My financial advisor pulled me out 2 years ago because he saw it coming. So as a loyal employee, even I didn't hang on till worthless. Don't you read the fine print on all the infomercials....."No guarantee of profits, your results may vary".
And I am completely baffled on where you get this fat cat lifestyle crap. I know some of the execs you think are living as fat cats. They haven't had bonuses in YEARS. Many of them were let go or "retired" just like my wife was last year and many, many more we releveled and are no longer executives.
Sorry, just had to clear those up for you.....................but as is often the case.................the truth doesn't sway the uniformed.

We can disagree. Sure sell the trucks. Even though the automotive world has known for at least 10 years they are dead ducks. There is only so much oil n the ground. But why weren't those GM executive geniuses investing the profits they were raking in on the super-gulp sized trucks making better cars? Those big trucks were very profitable. Instead they wasted the chance and left the biggest automotive company in the world with their pants down. Only sad Chrysler is worse off. And there are plenty of GM execs with golden parachutes who walked away from this mess tapping their heels before and after the financial crisis. It is the worker level men and women who get royally screwed who are now on food stamps.

GM upper management has ravaged what was the number one auto manufacturer in the world and has helped turn the US midwest into a wasteland.

All that being said I like the 2010 Camaro. There is some hope for the "new" GM. I just wish the roof was 2 inches higher and it was 2 hundred pounds lighter. But GM will never again be what it was.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

We can disagree. Sure sell the trucks. Even though the automotive world has known for at least 10 years they are dead ducks. There is only so much oil n the ground. But why weren't those GM executive geniuses investing the profits they were raking in on the super-gulp sized trucks making better cars? Those big trucks were very profitable. Instead they wasted the chance and left the biggest automotive company in the world with their pants down. Only sad Chrysler is worse off. And there are plenty of GM execs with golden parachutes who walked away from this mess tapping their heels before and after the financial crisis. It is the worker level men and women who get royally screwed who are now on food stamps.

GM upper management has ravaged what was the number one auto manufacturer in the world and has helped turn the US midwest into a wasteland.

All that being said I like the 2010 Camaro. There is some hope for the "new" GM. I just wish the roof was 2 inches higher and it was 2 hundred pounds lighter. But GM will never again be what it was.

Absolutely, all the new vehicles and platforms that GM began developing since the time that Rick Wagoner and Bob Lutz showed up (leading to the CTS, Camaro, G8, Malibu, LaCrosse, Enclave, Equinox, up-comming Volt, etc) have been complete and utter garbage and they simply threw the money out the windows of the Ren Cen. Oh wait ...

[HeatherR]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

We can disagree. Sure sell the trucks. Even though the automotive world has known for at least 10 years they are dead ducks. There is only so much oil n the ground. But why weren't those GM executive geniuses investing the profits they were raking in on the super-gulp sized trucks making better cars? Those big trucks were very profitable. Instead they wasted the chance and left the biggest automotive company in the world with their pants down. Only sad Chrysler is worse off. And there are plenty of GM execs with golden parachutes who walked away from this mess tapping their heels before and after the financial crisis. It is the worker level men and women who get royally screwed who are now on food stamps.

GM upper management has ravaged what was the number one auto manufacturer in the world and has helped turn the US midwest into a wasteland.

All that being said I like the 2010 Camaro. There is some hope for the "new" GM. I just wish the roof was 2 inches higher and it was 2 hundred pounds lighter. But GM will never again be what it was.

Wow there is so much misinformation here I don't even know where to start...

You do realize the Camaro and a lot of world class, fuel effecient cars were developed by the "old" GM...It takes longer than a few month for that to happen...

But, if you want to believe that all the oil in the ground is gone, GM execs bailed with all the truck money and left the "new" GM without any competitive vehicles then moved away from this "wasteland" you call the midwest where all the poor workers are living off of foodstamps I urge you to get out of New Jersey a little more often...