Electric Vehicles

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

So American politics is responsible for technology that is happening on the other side of the world and spreading this way?

What happens in China or Japan is IMMATERIAL to the US market.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by olrocker

What happens in China or Japan is IMMATERIAL to the US market.

Gotcha.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Gotcha.

If you don’t understand how subjective cars are there’s really no use in you trying to discuss this with anyone on here.

Cars aren’t an iPhone, where it’s the same thing whether you’re in New York or New Guinea. People don’t buy cars like a gallon of milk.

Cars are personality extensions and very subjective in design and performance.

All the tech in the world don’t matter if one market prefers gas and other prefers electric.

Not sure why you don’t get that.

You’re supposed to know more than me. What was GM paying you 6 figures for all those years?

[PDXSSCE]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

At the end of the day that is where we will be. The issue I have is that things are being done now in an overt attempt to prevent the US automakers from leading in development of EV technology. By the time EVs really take off, domestic manufacturers will be far behind.

So... when's the last time I had this sort of conversation with this sort of response?...lemme think....lemme think...

Ahh! I remember. Late '70s early '80s when Japanese imports started to take off. "Nobody's gonna buy those little $#!t-boxes" Until they did. "They can't compete with US auto". Until the plants started closing and Americans started getting laid off.

All the signs are there for a repeat, with the additional knowledge that we are already seeing the play being run in Europe and South America. There are also already plays being signaled by Chinese automakers to build cars in Mexico, the US and Canada. Sorta like VW and Honda did early in the '80s, with all the Japanese manufacturers and some of the Germans following them soon after. It's all right there in front of our eyes, should we choose to open them.

Yup, China is the Japan of the 80's and Hyundai of the 00's.

GenX refuse to accept that automakers aren't making vehicles for them anymore. They're being made for Millennials, GenZ and beyond. Generally speaking, those generations are more interested in technology and comfort, than heritage and performance.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

Yup, China is the Japan of the 80's and Hyundai of the 00's.

GenX refuse to accept that automakers aren't making vehicles for them anymore. They're being made for Millennials, GenZ and beyond. Generally speaking, those generations are more interested in technology and comfort, than heritage and performance.

Except China makes junk and they always have.

Hyundai/Kia makes junk and they always have - if the masses understood how bad their engines are, they use crap bearings, have degrading valve seals, and their motors burn oil even if you’re copious with oil changes - they’d go out of business.

There’s a reason their dealers actually keep entire engines in stock and they have 100,000 mile drivetrain warranties

But we’ve known since the 70s Japan builds EXCELLENT products. Precision machining of every engine part. Durable bearings. Properly balanced motos you could balance a dime on the valve cover at 300,000 miles with no major rebuilds - and this was 40 years ago.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by olrocker

Except China makes junk and they always have.

Hyundai/Kia makes junk and they always have - if the masses understood how bad their engines are, they use crap bearings, have degrading valve seals, and their motors burn oil even if you’re copious with oil changes - they’d go out of business.

There’s a reason their dealers actually keep entire engines in stock and they have 100,000 mile drivetrain warranties.

But we’ve known since the 70s Japan builds EXCELLENT products. Precision machining of every engine part. Durable bearings. Properly balanced motos you could balance a dime on the valve cover at 300,000 miles with no major rebuilds - and this was 40 years ago.

I would love to see any data or product reviews of any of the stuff in BLUE. It is simply NOT true and I'll provide the data refuting that below.

JD Power is the industry standard for Initial Quality and for Vehicle Dependability. Here are some of the results from their 2025 study. The Initial Quality Study surveys vehicle buyers who have recently purchased or leased a vehicle to get their input on vehicle quality for the new car. For the Vehicle Dependability Study they survey owner experiences with 3-year old vehicles.

Hyundai Motor Group (Hyundai, Kia and Genesis brands) ranked #1 in the J.D. Power Initial Quality Study. Guess they still suck
https://www.thenewsmarket.com/news/h...a-0e94a6d76429



In the J.D Power 2025 Dependability Study, measured in Problems per 100 vehicles (PP100)

• Kia had 196 PP100, just ahead of Honda (201 PP100) and the Industry Average (202 PP100)
• Lexus and Buick led the luxury and mainstream brands with 140 and 143 respectively. It should be noted that aside from Enclave, all Buicks are built in S. Korea or China
• Hyundai had 222 PP100. Not great, below industry average, but ahead of Ram (242), Jeep (275), and Chrysler (282).
• Luxury brand Genesis had 213 PP100. This is ahead of other luxury brands like Lincoln (221), Mercedes-Benz (243), Acura (249), Land Rover (270), and Audi (273). Lexus (140) and Cadillac (169) are the top two luxury brands.

These ranking include the impact of the engine fire problems Hyundai / Kia has had over several model years and the lack of theft protection. Their scores would likely have been better without those issues.

As for the 100k mile warranties. There is truth to that, but it's based on the fact that as they were getting their act in order in terms of quality and reliability, most customers still thought as you do today, so they put their money where their mouth is and offered the longer warranties. Funny thing is, their quality has gotten to be good enough that they can still afford to offer them because their products last that long.

[xstuntman]

Kia in particular is charging ahead and wants the no. 1 spot that Toyota took from Honda, and which they are now losing. The Taco truck problems are huge and many on the last model. I think if Kia comes out with a truck they might clinch it.

My wife's first Kia was great and the only issue was a battery not making it to 36k. Her year old K4 is the old Forte in a new dress and it's been fantastic. She loves the touch and swipe screen/dash and zero issues other than a too slow deer.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by olrocker

Except China makes junk and they always have.

..

• Lincoln Nautilus ranks 4th in Midsize Premium SUV for quality and reliability. It's built at the Changan Ford Hangzhou Assembly Plant
• Buick Envision is ranked #1 Compact SUV for quality and reliability. It is built at the Jinqiao SAIC-GM Plant near Shanghai.

[PDXSSCE]

Originally Posted by olrocker

There’s a reason their dealers actually keep entire engines in stock and they have 100,000 mile drivetrain warranties

It's not quite how it works. Keeping engines in stock and offering 100K miles drivetrain warranties represents their commitment to standing behind their products and their confidence in said products.

There are countless threads on automotive forums of vehicles, across multiple brands, needing engine replacements, but customers being forced to wait weeks, if not months, for replacements to arrive. There are even more threads across brands, of vehicles experiencing serious engine malfunctions, not long after their 3 years/36K miles warranties expired.

Did GM recently increase the Silverado's 2.7L Turbo drivetrain warranty to 5 years/100K miles because it's garbage? I assure you not.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I would love to see any data or product reviews of any of the stuff in BLUE. It is simply NOT true and I'll provide the data refuting that below.

JD Power.

You seriously lost me right there and I stopped reading the rest.

I take the advice of mechanics and people who actually REPAIR cars for a living. And good machinists and engine builders.

When you want to know who makes good engines, you ask the people who work on them for a living. Not some magazine where the journalists spend a month in a BRAND NEW CAR and doesn’t know the difference between a rod bearing and a crank bearing.

Hyundai/Kia makes GARBAGE engines today, right now, in 2025. Not just in 1990.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by olrocker

You seriously lost me right there and I stopped reading the rest.

I take the advice of mechanics and people who actually REPAIR cars for a living. And good machinists and engine builders.

When you want to know who makes good engines, you ask the people who work on them for a living. Not some magazine where the journalists spend a month in a BRAND NEW CAR and doesn’t know the difference between a rod bearing and a crank bearing.

Hyundai/Kia makes GARBAGE engines today, right now, in 2025. Not just in 1990.

The data that you chose to not read comes from people who buy the cars, all brands and models, and provide input through surveys on whether or not they like the products they bought and whether or not they are problematic.

It does not come from journalists. It comes from owners who just bought the cars and from owners who've owned them for three years. Had you read further you would have known that.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The data that you chose to not read comes from people who buy the cars, all brands and models, and provide input through surveys on whether or not they like the products they bought and whether or not they are problematic.

It does not come from journalists. It comes from owners who just bought the cars and from owners who've owned them for three years. Had you read further you would have known that.

No.

I mean people like this. This is just one example (I KNOW I can list a whole bunch of channels of REAL mechanics, machinists, and highly skilled engine builders if you really want me to do the work) . And I’m not even counting the mechanics and machinists I know and work with personally on a daily basis who have more time on a lathe last week than you have in your life:

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/0jHu9sz4tT0

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by olrocker

No.

I mean people like this. This is just one example (I KNOW I can list a whole bunch of channels of REAL mechanics, machinists, and highly skilled engine builders if you really want me to do the work) . And I’m not even counting the mechanics and machinists I know and work with personally on a daily basis who have more time on a lathe last week than you have in your life:

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/0jHu9sz4tT0

I'll repeat with clarification.

People who bought new cars in 2025 took surveys to state their satisfaction or lack thereof with the vehicles they bought. When talking about how satisfied those people were in 2025, the company with the most satisfied buyers was Hyundai Kia. That's the people who pay money for the cars.

In 2025 people who have owned their cars for 3 years were surveyed on their satisfaction or lack thereof with their vehicles. Hyundai Kia brands were somewhere in the middle of the pack, but definitely ahead of Chrysler, Jeep, Ram and several other brands. Including Nissan, Honda and Acura (stellar Japanese quality and durability).

If the people who own the cars are very satisfied with the quality and durability what more need be said?

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I'll repeat with clarification.

People who bought new cars in 2025 took surveys to state their satisfaction or lack thereof with the vehicles they bought. When talking about how satisfied those people were in 2025, the company with the most satisfied buyers was Hyundai Kia. That's the people who pay money for the cars.

In 2025 people who have owned their cars for 3 years were surveyed on their satisfaction or lack thereof with their vehicles. Hyundai Kia brands were somewhere in the middle of the pack, but definitely ahead of Chrysler, Jeep, Ram and several other brands. Including Nissan, Honda and Acura (stellar Japanese quality and durability).

If the people who own the cars a very satisfied with the quality and durability what more need be said?

I don’t care what people who don’t know the difference between a cup holder and a valve seat think about cars. Especially during their first 3 years of ownership.

Anyone asks ME what to buy for a daily driver and I would pretty much give them this list and tell them to pick from it. And I would also add Civic and Corolla.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/g64544...nHKj4lrrSHJCbg