Electric Vehicles

[snizzle]

“Today is a victory for common sense and affordability,” Farley said at the event. “This is the right move … We will invest more in affordable vehicles.”

Even the climate cult knew these standards were ridiculous, it was always meant to effectively outlaw new ICE production without explicitly doing so.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

Another blow to EV?

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/t...212656060.html

Originally Posted by snizzle

“Today is a victory for common sense and affordability,” Farley said at the event. “This is the right move … We will invest more in affordable vehicles.”

Even the climate cult knew these standards were ridiculous, it was always meant to effectively outlaw new ICE production without explicitly doing so.

I don't think it will have a significant incremental effect. It comes down to what the automakers do with it. They still have to remain competitive with each other. If Ford, GM, Stellantis go "ding-dong the witch is dead" and start rolling out 15 mpg barges while Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai-Kia continue to crack the 40 mpg mark with sedans and small crossovers and the 30 mpg mark with midsized 6 and 7 seat utilities consumers will punish them. Likewise, there is no evidence that Ford or especially GM will be satisfied with the rest of the OEMs getting ahead of them technologically in terms of development of EVs. Like it or not, EVs are here and they will keep coming, just at a slower pace. EVs are about more than climate and virtue signaling. Think of it as carburetor vs fuel injection but on a much broader and global scale. The more people are exposed to the technology, the smoother the transition becomes.

[bishopts]

The government incentives and epa mandates was always a dumb idea. The best method to get public attention with it is make it better. It's the same with the carburetor vs fuel injection comparison. Fuel injection ended up winning because it was just better in every way. It would reliably start no matter the temperature, it made the same power but did it while using less gas, it offered a better way to help diagnose itself.
The EV cars just need to be better than ICE counterparts. The battery is the weakest link. The materials needed to produce them mainly. If they actually get off the ground with the sodium ion batteries then that will be a big help. If you can get a EV truck to reliability pull a trailer even more distance than a ICE with a full tank of gas but do it also while giving you telemetry on the trailers weight effects in torque output, and massaging your feet. People will go that route. It has to be a nothing to lose switch. If the customer already has doubts because new things are bad, then sacrificing anything will not be an option.

[Devstrike]

The other thing that affected EVs that you did not mention in your list about EVs is the price. Right now most if not all EVs are more expensive then ICE counterparts. Take a Honda Civic price for example and then look at an EV version matching the size etc that Civic is and you will see it will be much higher. If they wanted more people to transition the prices need to come down significantly more.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Devstrike

The other thing that affected EVs that you did not mention in your list about EVs is the price. Right now most if not all EVs are more expensive then ICE counterparts. Take a Honda Civic price for example and then look at an EV version matching the size etc that Civic is and you will see it will be much higher. If they wanted more people to transition the prices need to come down significantly more.

That's true for people who buy. For people who lease, the residual value is more important than the actual sales price. The residual value (assigned vehicle value at end of the lease period) is how manufacturers build all of these "can't ignore" deals for vehicles, both ICE and EV. That's how Dodge moved so many 5.7L Chargers and Challengers, at least in the Detroit area, back in 2018 - 2021. "Hemi" Challengers for $219 / month. No wonder they were everywhere. It all comes down to how much down payment for how many months and how many miles.

Which would you rather have...

• A Midsized crossover EV with 319 mile range for $46,500.
• A Midsize crossover for $0 down, $332/month, 20,000 miles allowed for 24 months.

What if I tell you they are the exact same vehicle? GM gamed the residual value for the finance company that offered the lease. Even if I wanted to buy the car day 1, leasing it made so much more sense. Then if I want to buy it at the end of the lease I can. Or I can turn it in and move on.

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

That's true for people who buy. For people who lease, the residual value is more important than the actual sales price. The residual value (assigned vehicle value at end of the lease period) is how manufacturers build all of these "can't ignore" deals for vehicles, both ICE and EV. That's how Dodge moved so many 5.7L Chargers and Challengers, at least in the Detroit area, back in 2018 - 2021. "Hemi" Challengers for $219 / month. No wonder they were everywhere. It all comes down to how much down payment for how many months and how many miles.

Which would you rather have...

• A Midsized crossover EV with 319 mile range for $46,500.
• A Midsize crossover for $0 down, $332/month, 20,000 miles allowed for 24 months.

What if I tell you they are the exact same vehicle? GM gamed the residual value for the finance company that offered the lease. Even if I wanted to buy the car day 1, leasing it made so much more sense. Then if I want to buy it at the end of the lease I can. Or I can turn it in and move on.

This is actually good however, how many people actually know about this?

[bishopts]

Originally Posted by Devstrike

This is actually good however, how many people actually know about this?

Not gonna lie. My neighbor who just got out of the Navy a few years ago didn't know if you have a bigger down payment the monthly payment will go down.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

That's true for people who buy. For people who lease, the residual value is more important than the actual sales price. The residual value (assigned vehicle value at end of the lease period) is how manufacturers build all of these "can't ignore" deals for vehicles, both ICE and EV. That's how Dodge moved so many 5.7L Chargers and Challengers, at least in the Detroit area, back in 2018 - 2021. "Hemi" Challengers for $219 / month. No wonder they were everywhere. It all comes down to how much down payment for how many months and how many miles.

Which would you rather have...

• A Midsized crossover EV with 319 mile range for $46,500.
• A Midsize crossover for $0 down, $332/month, 20,000 miles allowed for 24 months.

What if I tell you they are the exact same vehicle? GM gamed the residual value for the finance company that offered the lease. Even if I wanted to buy the car day 1, leasing it made so much more sense. Then if I want to buy it at the end of the lease I can. Or I can turn it in and move on.

Originally Posted by Devstrike

This is actually good however, how many people actually know about this?

I would expect that anyone in the market for a new vehicle that spends any time with a good sales person would be made aware. In my case, my Chevrolet dealer called me and said, literally..."What do you think about $0 down / $300 a month for a 24 month lease?" When I asked him "on what" he said "your choice...Blazer EV or Equinox EV". I know a few other people in my circle who made similar deals around the same time with different dealerships. Two of them are in my Camaro Club. They make a great vehicle to drive when you're not driving your Camaro.

My best lease deal ever was $69 / month on a Chevrolet Cruze. Came around right about the time my kids were in high school and we needed an "extra car" for them to drive to school and sports practices.

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I would expect that anyone in the market for a new vehicle that spends any time with a good sales person would be made aware. In my case, my Chevrolet dealer called me and said, literally..."What do you think about $0 down / $300 a month for a 24 month lease?" When I asked him "on what" he said "your choice...Blazer EV or Equinox EV". I know a few other people in my circle who made similar deals around the same time with different dealerships. Two of them are in my Camaro Club. They make a great vehicle to drive when you're not driving your Camaro.

My best lease deal ever was $69 / month on a Chevrolet Cruze. Came around right about the time my kids were in high school and we needed an "extra car" for them to drive to school and sports practices.

My wife has a charging station at work if we new about this when we were in the market for her car a couple or so years ago we would have jumped on it. She ended up with a gas powered Subaru which she does like.

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by bishopts

Not gonna lie. My neighbor who just got out of the Navy a few years ago didn't know if you have a bigger down payment the monthly payment will go down.

I thought everyone knew that

[olrocker]

I’ll say this: the first company to put a 3.5 liter V6 or bigger or any size V8 with NO turbos, NO hybrid, NO active cylinder management, and a regular geared transmission back into an SUV or a full size pickup - like they used to be until 15 years ago - for a reasonable price gets my business.

I’ve had it with tiny turbo 4s driving SUVs and even pickups, and forget the twin turbo V6s too.

Naturally aspirated only.

And for God’s sake get rid of auto start/stop

[bishopts]

Originally Posted by olrocker

I’ll say this: the first company to put a 3.5 liter V6 or bigger or any size V8 with NO turbos, NO hybrid, NO active cylinder management, and a regular geared transmission back into an SUV or a full size pickup - like they used to be until 15 years ago - for a reasonable price gets my business.

I’ve had it with tiny turbo 4s driving SUVs and even pickups, and forget the twin turbo V6s too.

Naturally aspirated only.

And for God’s sake get rid of auto start/stop

Chevys 6.6 v8 trucks don't have DoD.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by bishopts

Chevys 6.6 v8 trucks don't have DoD.

That is true for the cast iron block Medium / Heavy Duty truck engines made in Flint. It is yet to be determined for the aluminum block Light Duty Vehicle engines that will be made in Tonawanda.

[PDXSSCE]

Originally Posted by Devstrike

There is just nothing to be excited about in the EV market right now. Using Dodge as an example the Charger with the Hurricane engine in it is far more appealing than the EV version. Even if I lived where I can reliably charge one at home there just isn't anything out there that I would want.

EV or ICE, that thing is an absolute disaster. Shoving an ICE engine in EV framework, with the weight included, is the epitome of putting lipstick on a pig. I wouldn't expect the quality issues to disappear either.