If you believe GM will build a GEN 7 ICE Camaro, Read This

[GreenZLE]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Actually it is at least 95% true. I’ll get to the other 5%.

The standards that the government is raising CAFE to are achievable. The technologies to get there exist or are very near production capability. The issue is, automakers that add those technologies to ICE vehicles will not be able to charge for them. How much are you willing to pay for a Gas Particulate Filter? Or dedicated advanced EGR? Or near diesel pressure injection systems? Even when CAFE is raised it’s still far below the emissions standards in Europe and China. Both of those regions sell more vehicles than the US. But then, they don’t sell many large pickups and SUVs, so there’s that.

The 5% that isn’t true…BYD does not have a plant in Mexico. Yet. They’re looking for property or to acquire a plant that may soon be closed by another automaker. Currently they import vehicles to Mexico from China.


This is a STATE imposing a mandate, not the Federal government. The Federal government has not attempted to ban ICE. There’s a big difference between state mandates and federal mandates. There is no federal mandate. There are a number of states that have signed on to California’s regulations and they would also stand to “ban” ICE in the same timeframe. Except several of them are waltzing that California’s ban is a bit over the top and several states are backing out of it. Now Canada…THAT’S a Federal ban. But Canada’s vehicle sales are typically around 10% of US sales. California sells more than Canada.


Electric mandates at a state level are real. Electric mandates at a Canadian federal level are real. Electric mandates at a US federal level do not exist.

Hey, you can try to prop up the "no mandate" air claim all you want but these government officials put their foot in your mouth for years now by literally taking credit for their mandates.

The "no mandate" lie is a lie no matter how many times you tell it.

Oh look, here's another MANDATE:

The Biden administration on Wednesday finalized one of the most significant pieces of its ambitious climate agenda: the strongest new tailpipe rules for passenger cars and trucks that will decisively push the US auto market toward electric vehicles and hybrids.
But in a concession to automakers and labor unions, the rules will be phased in more slowly than originally proposed and will give automakers more choices for how to comply.
Nearly a year ago, the Environmental Protection Agency proposed a fast ramp-up into EVs — a rule that would have ensured two-thirds of all vehicles sold were electric by the end of this decade. The EPA pumped the brakes on that plan Wednesday.

Spare us the gaslighting. We have irrefutable bonafied proof from the governments own mouth verifying EV mandates. Its all a joke anyway because we have reduced pollution from cars and diesel trucks at least 90% since the 70's. BTW, a part of improved air quality is because we exported manufacturing to India and China where they pollute even worse than we did in the 70's. We'd be better off to back our mandates and environmental regulations off about to 2010 and find a real problem to worry about.

[Scott12]

Would not buy any of the ugly EVs, basically because they don't fit my lifestyle. Plus they always change the look and they suck.

Only thing left is the corvette. Which the ZR1 will be an unbelievable powerhouse this year. If I had it in cash and not in savings I would own one.

[LT1gen6]

Loving the debate that continues here, agreeing with many points. Gen 6 Camaro is still my favorite. However, its shortfalls are definitely problematic and significant for me. Limitations for me include outward visibility (major), cargo and passenger amenities (minor), and as a 6' 3" driver, ingress and egress (twisting around required to get my fat head in (major). Also, theft issues have restricted my fair-weather seasonal use, which means I drive it less now (in addition to minimal winter driving).

None of things has anything to do with EV vs Ice.

Meanwhile, after driving my wife's eBlazer RS AWD (her car choice is hers, not mine), my impressions are favorable. It's decent no-fuss transportation. Power for highway entries or uphill passing situations is fine. I have noticed no drawbacks for this model as compared to owning it's predecessor iceBlazer RS. The biggest annoyance for me is the sound it makes while driving 25mph or less. I wish there was an option to change or disable it.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

Hey, you can try to prop up the "no mandate" air claim all you want but these government officials put their foot in your mouth for years now by literally taking credit for their mandates.

The "no mandate" lie is a lie no matter how many times you tell it.

Oh look, here's another MANDATE:

The Biden administration on Wednesday finalized one of the most significant pieces of its ambitious climate agenda: the strongest new tailpipe rules for passenger cars and trucks that will decisively push the US auto market toward electric vehicles and hybrids.
But in a concession to automakers and labor unions, the rules will be phased in more slowly than originally proposed and will give automakers more choices for how to comply.
Nearly a year ago, the Environmental Protection Agency proposed a fast ramp-up into EVs — a rule that would have ensured two-thirds of all vehicles sold were electric by the end of this decade. The EPA pumped the brakes on that plan Wednesday.

Spare us the gaslighting. We have irrefutable bonafied proof from the governments own mouth verifying EV mandates. Its all a joke anyway because we have reduced pollution from cars and diesel trucks at least 90% since the 70's. BTW, a part of improved air quality is because we exported manufacturing to India and China where they pollute even worse than we did in the 70's. We'd be better off to back our mandates and environmental regulations off about to 2010 and find a real problem to worry about.

A: Mandate = You must do this or else.

B: Regulation = Here is the final measurable result. You figure out how to achieve it.

Please show me where the Federal Government says “you must make only electric cars or else”. The world we are living in is B.

The article you linked to estimates that it would take 66% of electric vehicles to achieve the CAFE regulations and for the most part that is true, but it is also a useless statistic. It’s just straight math. Every automaker will have a different mix dependent on their product choices and level of technology added to what’s left of their ICE portfolio. Toyota can throw hybrids on everything and need a lot fewer EVs than anybody else. In fact, that is EXACTLY what they are doing. Go try to buy a new Camry that isn’t a hybrid. I’ll save you some time. You can’t. So they will not make 2/3 EVs or whatever the latest estimate is. GM is on the other end of the spectrum. Most of the volume is in large pickups and SUVs so to balance that out, GM needs to sell a lot more EVs. But that’s a portfolio choice (says the guy whose job it was to help plan the GM propulsion system portfolio).

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by LT1gen6

Loving the debate that continues here, agreeing with many points. Gen 6 Camaro is still my favorite. However, its shortfalls are definitely problematic and significant for me. Limitations for me include outward visibility (major), cargo and passenger amenities (minor), and as a 6' 3" driver, ingress and egress (twisting around required to get my fat head in (major). Also, theft issues have restricted my fair-weather seasonal use, which means I drive it less now (in addition to minimal winter driving).

None of things has anything to do with EV vs Ice.

Meanwhile, after driving my wife's eBlazer RS AWD (her car choice is hers, not mine), my impressions are favorable. It's decent no-fuss transportation. Power for highway entries or uphill passing situations is fine. I have noticed no drawbacks for this model as compared to owning it's predecessor iceBlazer RS. The biggest annoyance for me is the sound it makes while driving 25mph or less. I wish there was an option to change or disable it.

Now THAT is a mandate. The federal government actually does MANDATE that EVs produce an audible tone at low speeds. The “bell the cat” rule. Keeps blind people and inattentive people from getting run over in parking lots and such.

[LT1gen6]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Now THAT is a mandate. The federal government actually does MANDATE that EVs produce an audible tone at low speeds. The “bell the cat” rule. Keeps blind people and inattentive people from getting run over in parking lots and such.

Understand and support this mandate, just not the specific tone of the eBlazer. It sounds like a trio of drunken sailors returning to the ship from shore leave. However, if I decided to transform the eBlazer into a neighborhood ice cream truck, the "synth pad" for audio is already in place.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by LT1gen6

Understand and support this mandate, just not the specific tone of the eBlazer. It sounds like a trio of drunken sailors returning to the ship from shore leave. However, if I decided to transform the eBlazer into a neighborhood ice cream truck, the "synth pad" for audio is already in place.

I hear ya. I was just hoping that seeing how the term “mandate” is correctly used would help others.

Our car sounds like a freakin’ spaceship. I may have to figure out how to change that. I never noticed until one day I was out mowing the lawn and my wife was backing it into the garage.

On the other hand, setting the lock tones to “random” has been the source of never-ending comedy. Sometimes as we’re walking away the car applauds. Sometimes it farts. Sometimes it screams like the goat in the memes. You never know what’s coming and the looks on people’s faces are hilarious.

Anyway, trying to stay on topic… a person in a position to know has told me that they have seen several clay models that would/could be Camaro. At least one of the clays had tailpipes. Not all clay models become production vehicles, but all production vehicles start out as clay models at some point.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Anyway, trying to stay on topic… a person in a position to know has told me that they have seen several clay models that would/could be Camaro. At least one of the clays had tailpipes. Not all clay models become production vehicles, but all production vehicles start out as clay models at some point.

I'd be cool with the E-Ray powertrain in a Camaro Coupe. My only gripe with it would be cost. If it has to be AWD that's another gripe. If Prius' can be FWD only while being a Hybrid, then I want my Hybrid Camaro to be RWD. If I wanted an AWD coupe then I'd buy something german.

I'd also be cool with a less powerful ICE V8 engine paired with the electric E-Ray motor. It can be a 2.8-3.2 DOHC engine for emissions purposes. Still get the V8 sound along with the torque that we're used to since batteries are damn good at making torque.

[GreenZLE]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

A: Mandate = You must do this or else.

B: Regulation = Here is the final measurable result. You figure out how to achieve it.

Please show me where the Federal Government says “you must make only electric cars or else”. The world we are living in is B.

The article you linked to estimates that it would take 66% of electric vehicles to achieve the CAFE regulations and for the most part that is true, but it is also a useless statistic. It’s just straight math. Every automaker will have a different mix dependent on their product choices and level of technology added to what’s left of their ICE portfolio. Toyota can throw hybrids on everything and need a lot fewer EVs than anybody else. In fact, that is EXACTLY what they are doing. Go try to buy a new Camry that isn’t a hybrid. I’ll save you some time. You can’t. So they will not make 2/3 EVs or whatever the latest estimate is. GM is on the other end of the spectrum. Most of the volume is in large pickups and SUVs so to balance that out, GM needs to sell a lot more EVs. But that’s a portfolio choice (says the guy whose job it was to help plan the GM propulsion system portfolio).

The EPA estimates its rules would prompt more than two-thirds of new car sales to be electric by 2032, a rapid increase from their current share of around 8%.
"There's no hiding. The proposed rule is an electric vehicle mandate," said bill sponsor Rep. Tim Walberg, R-Mich., on the House floor Wednesday. "Not only does this EV mandate display breathtaking government overreach into the auto industry, but it's also unaffordable, unattainable and unrealistic for American consumers."

The government mandates not only the increased productions of EV's hybrids too, they mandate the eventual elimination of gas powered vehicles. No amount of propaganda or word salad can hide it.

Further, out of my roughly 30 immediate family members, only 1 has an Ev ( Audi SUV) and they want to get rid of it. These EV incentives and mandates arent resulting in happy customers.

If GM ever gets rid of its woketard board and the government eases these ridiculous mandates, they should bring back an Acadia with a V6 and an Impala sized sedan, also with a V6, along with a 1/2 ton work truck with a V8 instead of that joke 4 cylinder turbo. People want to buy a cheap work truck and tow a trailer behind it.

Its OK if GM doesnt though, it can go into the trash heap of all the other American car companies that dont exist anymore. Me and my family arent buying any of their EV's and we're also not buying an underpowered SUV or truck.

[JKOR]

Gm will go bankrupt again. If this country survives.

[DaveC113]

I just see tons of really expensive new cars I don't want to own. I don't even care about having a fast car for a dd anymore, but a basic Camry hybrid now approaches what I paid for my SS 1LE in late 2018. 50 mpg is nice but I work from home so the gas savings vs my current dd ('16 M235xi) isn't hugely significant. I guess everything has gotten more expensive but now it seems like a budget car is now in the $30k range and a "nice" Camry is more like $40k. Seems like a lot for basic transportation.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

The EPA estimates its rules would prompt more than two-thirds of new car sales to be electric by 2032, a rapid increase from their current share of around 8%.
"There's no hiding. The proposed rule is an electric vehicle mandate," said bill sponsor Rep. Tim Walberg, R-Mich., on the House floor Wednesday. "Not only does this EV mandate display breathtaking government overreach into the auto industry, but it's also unaffordable, unattainable and unrealistic for American consumers."

The government mandates not only the increased productions of EV's hybrids too, they mandate the eventual elimination of gas powered vehicles. No amount of propaganda or word salad can hide it.

Further, out of my roughly 30 immediate family members, only 1 has an Ev ( Audi SUV) and they want to get rid of it. These EV incentives and mandates arent resulting in happy customers.

If GM ever gets rid of its woketard board and the government eases these ridiculous mandates, they should bring back an Acadia with a V6 and an Impala sized sedan, also with a V6, along with a 1/2 ton work truck with a V8 instead of that joke 4 cylinder turbo. People want to buy a cheap work truck and tow a trailer behind it.

Its OK if GM doesnt though, it can go into the trash heap of all the other American car companies that dont exist anymore. Me and my family arent buying any of their EV's and we're also not buying an underpowered SUV or truck.

Michigan Republican calls EPA regulation of CAFE (which doesn’t apply to EVs) a mandate. Shocker! Of course he does. That’s right out of the party handbook to politicize EVs. Forget word salad. Just find the Federal law that requires consumers to buy EVs and I’ll shut up. This is an easy bet because you cannot find what does not exist. The Federal Government has mandated that all government owned fleets will transition to EV. Their fleet, their call. But show me a Federal “mandate” that says consumers cannot buy an ICE vehicle. You can’t. Therefore, no mandate, regardless of how clueless politicians want to position it. Buy what you want.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

I just see tons of really expensive new cars I don't want to own. I don't even care about having a fast car for a dd anymore, but a basic Camry hybrid now approaches what I paid for my SS 1LE in late 2018. 50 mpg is nice but I work from home so the gas savings vs my current dd ('16 M235xi) isn't hugely significant. I guess everything has gotten more expensive but now it seems like a budget car is now in the $30k range and a "nice" Camry is more like $40k. Seems like a lot for basic transportation.

The average price of a new vehicle in 2023 was > $48k. And since EVs were only about 8% of the vehicles sold, they weren’t the reason. So far this year the average price is a little below $48k. Still high. When you can spend over $90k for a Silverado pickup that’s telling us something. On the flip side, Chevrolet and Buick are doing a good job moving Trax and Envista at prices below $30k and sometimes below $25k. Other than that good luck finding anything under $30k.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

I'd be cool with the E-Ray powertrain in a Camaro Coupe. My only gripe with it would be cost. If it has to be AWD that's another gripe. If Prius' can be FWD only while being a Hybrid, then I want my Hybrid Camaro to be RWD. If I wanted an AWD coupe then I'd buy something german.

I'd also be cool with a less powerful ICE V8 engine paired with the electric E-Ray motor. It can be a 2.8-3.2 DOHC engine for emissions purposes. Still get the V8 sound along with the torque that we're used to since batteries are damn good at making torque.

At the time I was winding toward my retirement, the plan was working towards a Camaro hybrid. 4, 6, and 8 cylinder configurations were being tossed around. That all went dark in 2019 when GM decided to go 100% zero emissions vehicles by 2035. Now that they are easing off of that plan a little bit, there is room to revive the old plans or something similar, if the business case makes sense.