If you believe GM will build a GEN 7 ICE Camaro, Read This

[GXP08jrf]

While I do think the return of an ICE Camaro is not in the cards because of cost vs sales vs profit, there's no reason that repurposing of the Lansing plant should be considered the end.

If an ICE Camaro were to return, gm has a lot of manufacturing flexibility to build it in any number of locations as has been the case in Camaro's history. In addition to GM's own facilities, options include contract assembly with a variety of suppliers and manufacturers, many of which have the desire (and some have the capacity) to do it.

[Smokin19]

Took the wife's XT5 Cadillac to the dealer for an oil change yesterday. Saw many Ev's (Lyrig) sitting on the lot and one in showroom. Sat in the one to check it out and told the salesman "too bad it doesn't have a gas engine" to which he replied "I wish I had a quarter every time I heard that comment". They have only sold 2 in the 7 months sitting there he said. The car I sat in was cheaper, at $68k than my ZL1 new.

What happens to these cars if they don't sell, I have no idea.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

Even more incredible, there are people who deny that the government is forcing electric cars on us. THATS even more delusional!


I predict GM is going bankrupt or being sold off within 10 years. I'm not buying any more of their cars and have zero interest in any electric car.

Ok, let me be very plain and simple here. No one is forcing GM or any other OEM in the United States to make EVs.

Even in liberal California they are NOT mandating EVs.

What is being mandated is Zero Emission Vehicles. The OEMs are making the choice to build EVs because from a technology standpoint it is by far the most mature answer to that question. FC also would work and meet this requirement. In the future there may be other technologies that would be ZEV. With California and it's 13 sister states mandating 100% ZEVs in the near future, do you expect GM to just give up on those sales? Or build cars and trucks that can be sold there? Remember when Tesla was only profitable selling credits for California to the other OEMs? Can't do that anymore.

Now did Joe order that some of the postal vehicles get changed from ICE to EV? I believe he did. Doesn't impact you or me. And yes, you can play the game of saying, "well it says ZEV but they mean EV". What they mean is a vehicle with zero tailpipe emissions. OEMs? You go figure that out. It is how CARB has worked since it's inception. Force technology by defining the solution.

And again your prediction of GM going bankrupt is very much without knowledge of how the auto industry and GM work. First, GM went bankrupt the first time because gas hit $4 per gallon and full size truck sales TANKED. I was in a meeting where they went through the financials. GM went from being able to pay their bills to having NO ability simply from FST sales tanking. And because of the financial situation at the time, there was no money available. That is bankruptcy. Now when you pull the "in 10 years" that is pretty weak because anything can happen. And the big one coming, as I've screamed from the roof tops, the Chinese are coming. And since Americans as a whole don't care where the stuff they buy is made, that will fully eat into the remaining US manufacturers (GM, Ford and Tesla). And if you do any research, you will see where BYD is heading and it's here, with a plant in Mexico. Nio is right behind them. So yes, GM could go bankrupt, but it will likely be a combination of FST sales AND not having EV products that compete with the Chinese.

So not delusional just accepting the facts.

[GreenZLE]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Ok, let me be very plain and simple here. No one is forcing GM or any other OEM in the United States to make EVs.

Even in liberal California they are NOT mandating EVs.

What is being mandated is Zero Emission Vehicles. The OEMs are making the choice to build EVs because from a technology standpoint it is by far the most mature answer to that question. FC also would work and meet this requirement. In the future there may be other technologies that would be ZEV. With California and it's 13 sister states mandating 100% ZEVs in the near future, do you expect GM to just give up on those sales? Or build cars and trucks that can be sold there? Remember when Tesla was only profitable selling credits for California to the other OEMs? Can't do that anymore.

Now did Joe order that some of the postal vehicles get changed from ICE to EV? I believe he did. Doesn't impact you or me. And yes, you can play the game of saying, "well it says ZEV but they mean EV". What they mean is a vehicle with zero tailpipe emissions. OEMs? You go figure that out. It is how CARB has worked since it's inception. Force technology by defining the solution.

And again your prediction of GM going bankrupt is very much without knowledge of how the auto industry and GM work. First, GM went bankrupt the first time because gas hit $4 per gallon and full size truck sales TANKED. I was in a meeting where they went through the financials. GM went from being able to pay their bills to having NO ability simply from FST sales tanking. And because of the financial situation at the time, there was no money available. That is bankruptcy. Now when you pull the "in 10 years" that is pretty weak because anything can happen. And the big one coming, as I've screamed from the roof tops, the Chinese are coming. And since Americans as a whole don't care where the stuff they buy is made, that will fully eat into the remaining US manufacturers (GM, Ford and Tesla). And if you do any research, you will see where BYD is heading and it's here, with a plant in Mexico. Nio is right behind them. So yes, GM could go bankrupt, but it will likely be a combination of FST sales AND not having EV products that compete with the Chinese.

So not delusional just accepting the facts.

This is simply NOT true. When the government raises CAFE standards as they have, it forces manufacturers to comply. When the government offers incentives to build more electric vehicles be that subsidizing battery plants or factory upfits, thats forcing people into electric cars.

" The California Air Resources Board on Thursday signed off on a sweeping plan requiring that by 2035, all new passenger cars and light trucks sold in the state be electric vehicles or other emissions-free models." It doesnt get any clearer than this. "
Will other states follow suit?

Under the federal Clean Air Act, California is allowed to set tougher emissions standards than the federal government. In recent years, more than a dozen other states (including New York, Massachusetts and Washington) have followed California’s rules too." And of course they will!

Battery powered tools and small equipment is also being forced upon us. Beginning Jan 1st, 2029, sales of new, small off road gasoline engines will be banned in California. These engines are already mandated to have EVAP canisters. "The California Air Resources Board approved a measure that will require most newly manufactured small off-road engines (SORE) such as those found in leaf blowers, lawn mowers and other equipment be zero emission starting in 2024. Portable generators, including those in recreational vehicles, would be required to meet more stringent standards in 2024 and meet zero-emission standards starting in 2028."

Cummins has entered the electric truck market. Why? From Jan 2024:
"California rang in the new year by delaying enforcement of its "Advanced Clean Fleets" Regulation, which requires trucking companies operating in the state to purchase an increasing percentage of electric trucks in the coming years. While enforcement was slated to begin this week, officials at the California Air Resources Board agreed to pause the registration and compliance requirements until the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency grants the regulation a green light to proceed." Thats a mandate to force replacement of diesels with electric semis. I'd also like to point out that since 1990, diesel emissions have been reduced well over 92%. I'd say we've reached the mountaintop and should take a few decades of victory laps.

I've done the research. Electric mandates are both real and undeniable.

[bigd1276]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Ok, let me be very plain and simple here. No one is forcing GM or any other OEM in the United States to make EVs.

Even in liberal California they are NOT mandating EVs.

What is being mandated is Zero Emission Vehicles. The OEMs are making the choice to build EVs because from a technology standpoint it is by far the most mature answer to that question. FC also would work and meet this requirement. In the future there may be other technologies that would be ZEV. With California and it's 13 sister states mandating 100% ZEVs in the near future, do you expect GM to just give up on those sales? Or build cars and trucks that can be sold there? Remember when Tesla was only profitable selling credits for California to the other OEMs? Can't do that anymore.

Now did Joe order that some of the postal vehicles get changed from ICE to EV? I believe he did. Doesn't impact you or me. And yes, you can play the game of saying, "well it says ZEV but they mean EV". What they mean is a vehicle with zero tailpipe emissions. OEMs? You go figure that out. It is how CARB has worked since it's inception. Force technology by defining the solution.

And again your prediction of GM going bankrupt is very much without knowledge of how the auto industry and GM work. First, GM went bankrupt the first time because gas hit $4 per gallon and full size truck sales TANKED. I was in a meeting where they went through the financials. GM went from being able to pay their bills to having NO ability simply from FST sales tanking. And because of the financial situation at the time, there was no money available. That is bankruptcy. Now when you pull the "in 10 years" that is pretty weak because anything can happen. And the big one coming, as I've screamed from the roof tops, the Chinese are coming. And since Americans as a whole don't care where the stuff they buy is made, that will fully eat into the remaining US manufacturers (GM, Ford and Tesla). And if you do any research, you will see where BYD is heading and it's here, with a plant in Mexico. Nio is right behind them. So yes, GM could go bankrupt, but it will likely be a combination of FST sales AND not having EV products that compete with the Chinese.

So not delusional just accepting the facts.

That took you longer than I thought.

[SomeGeoffGuy]

Originally Posted by bigd1276

That took you longer than I thought.

I was literally going to type in the same post. It's like Biden gives him a dollar for every time he denies this.

-Geoff

[detamble13]

Originally Posted by Number 3

the Chinese are coming. And since Americans as a whole don't care where the stuff they buy is made, that will fully eat into the remaining US manufacturers (GM, Ford and Tesla).

I listen to Autoline after Hours and they were talking about a potential cap to the amount of Automotive brands people can stomach. As we've seen some EV manufacturers already come and go, do you think that BYD will gain a strong foothold in North America based entirely on affordability? I've read their build quality is decent as well.

[GXP08jrf]

Originally Posted by detamble13

I listen to Autoline after Hours and they were talking about a potential cap to the amount of Automotive brands people can stomach. As we've seen some EV manufacturers already come and go, do you think that BYD will gain a strong foothold in North America based entirely on affordability? I've read their build quality is decent as well.

Poeple said the same thing about the Japanese in the '70s, and then the Koreans in the '90s. Now the same consideration is being given to the Chinese over the past decade. There are already a slew of Chinese suppliers serving the industry across manufacturers with facilities in the US in addition to the small handful of vehicles sold under non-Chines brands that are manufacturered in China and shipped here for sale. It's only a matter of time. I've seen comments on this very forum speaking the praises of the Kia Stinger. Who would've thought that people would be cross shopping MB, BMW and Genesis? We're going to sit here and deny that BYD and their ilk could be a game changer?

So yes, gm and Ford need to be prepared for what could be a wave of Chinese EVs entering the market. These will be cheap enough and optioned enough with sufficient quality to capture appreciable quantity of consumers. Once the footprint is established, it'll be difficult to regain those sales. They start out small and cheap, add more size and luxury over the years, just like the Koreans have. gm cannot continue to market vehicles that have small market penetration and nil profit margin. Camaro somewhat defines this statement

The only saving grace (if it can be considered as such) is that US/China relations continue to be somewhat sour, and the Chinese economy is volitile enough that manuhfactureres there may not be ready to make the investment right away. But if Cali continues to push, they will welcome and even court BYD as much as any other manufacturer domestic or otherwise.

[90503]

[Classic Muscle]

I don't think GM could keep selling both Camaros and Corvettes even if they were both in high demand and selling over 100k per year per model and still meet EPA CAFE requirements. GM needs to balance out the 20 mpg gas engines in Caddys and Corvettes with EV sales to meet the EPA CAFE requirement of something like 50 mpg avg. for cars in 2026... They can't sell too many gas models ...is why there won't be another gas Camaro. Only other option would be to pay 100s of $millions in fines like Kuniskis did selling Challengers and Chargers and not meeting CAFE fleet average numbers... Hence why he is gone and so are Hemis.

Ford doesn't have another V8 sports car besides the Mustang to drag down the mpg avg, so they can balance out the average with Mach-Es. Also Ford has a car guy as CEO, which helps. Can't say the same for GM.

[LT4Greg]

Maybe GM will come out with a 7gen Camaro to compete in NASCAR since the 6gen is already outdated so far as aerodynamics. Seriously doubt it though.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by GXP08jrf

Poeple said the same thing about the Japanese in the '70s, and then the Koreans in the '90s. Now the same consideration is being given to the Chinese over the past decade. There are already a slew of Chinese suppliers serving the industry across manufacturers with facilities in the US in addition to the small handful of vehicles sold under non-Chines brands that are manufacturered in China and shipped here for sale. It's only a matter of time. I've seen comments on this very forum speaking the praises of the Kia Stinger. Who would've thought that people would be cross shopping MB, BMW and Genesis? We're going to sit here and deny that BYD and their ilk could be a game changer?

So yes, gm and Ford need to be prepared for what could be a wave of Chinese EVs entering the market. These will be cheap enough and optioned enough with sufficient quality to capture appreciable quantity of consumers. Once the footprint is established, it'll be difficult to regain those sales. They start out small and cheap, add more size and luxury over the years, just like the Koreans have. gm cannot continue to market vehicles that have small market penetration and nil profit margin. Camaro somewhat defines this statement

The only saving grace (if it can be considered as such) is that US/China relations continue to be somewhat sour, and the Chinese economy is volitile enough that manuhfactureres there may not be ready to make the investment right away. But if Cali continues to push, they will welcome and even court BYD as much as any other manufacturer domestic or otherwise.

I can only hope US businesses get out of China ASAP, which is happening, and our leadership imposes tariffs on Chinese EVs, which they will no matter who is in charge.

Then there's also the fact that EV fever is breaking and they are not selling as well, and their resale value is extremely poor which makes them even less attractive. Chinese EV resale is going to be as bad as a 6-figure luxury car or worse.

Cali is trying to force things, maybe with good intentions but I'm not sure the cure is better than the disease.

The future is EV, but it seems to work out a lot better for bikes and city cars with current tech... I think battery energy density and charging infrastructure, as well as overall upfront cost to manufacture, need to improve before widespread adaption is feasible for longer range car and truck applications. I love my ebikes though, they're genius.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Ok, let me be very plain and simple here. No one is forcing GM or any other OEM in the United States to make EVs.

Even in liberal California they are NOT mandating EVs.

What is being mandated is Zero Emission Vehicles. The OEMs are making the choice to build EVs because from a technology standpoint it is by far the most mature answer to that question. FC also would work and meet this requirement. In the future there may be other technologies that would be ZEV. With California and it's 13 sister states mandating 100% ZEVs in the near future, do you expect GM to just give up on those sales? Or build cars and trucks that can be sold there? Remember when Tesla was only profitable selling credits for California to the other OEMs? Can't do that anymore.

Now did Joe order that some of the postal vehicles get changed from ICE to EV? I believe he did. Doesn't impact you or me. And yes, you can play the game of saying, "well it says ZEV but they mean EV". What they mean is a vehicle with zero tailpipe emissions. OEMs? You go figure that out. It is how CARB has worked since it's inception. Force technology by defining the solution.

And again your prediction of GM going bankrupt is very much without knowledge of how the auto industry and GM work. First, GM went bankrupt the first time because gas hit $4 per gallon and full size truck sales TANKED. I was in a meeting where they went through the financials. GM went from being able to pay their bills to having NO ability simply from FST sales tanking. And because of the financial situation at the time, there was no money available. That is bankruptcy. Now when you pull the "in 10 years" that is pretty weak because anything can happen. And the big one coming, as I've screamed from the roof tops, the Chinese are coming. And since Americans as a whole don't care where the stuff they buy is made, that will fully eat into the remaining US manufacturers (GM, Ford and Tesla). And if you do any research, you will see where BYD is heading and it's here, with a plant in Mexico. Nio is right behind them. So yes, GM could go bankrupt, but it will likely be a combination of FST sales AND not having EV products that compete with the Chinese.

So not delusional just accepting the facts.

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

This is simply NOT true. When the government raises CAFE standards as they have, it forces manufacturers to comply. When the government offers incentives to build more electric vehicles be that subsidizing battery plants or factory upfits, thats forcing people into electric cars.

Actually it is at least 95% true. I’ll get to the other 5%.

The standards that the government is raising CAFE to are achievable. The technologies to get there exist or are very near production capability. The issue is, automakers that add those technologies to ICE vehicles will not be able to charge for them. How much are you willing to pay for a Gas Particulate Filter? Or dedicated advanced EGR? Or near diesel pressure injection systems? Even when CAFE is raised it’s still far below the emissions standards in Europe and China. Both of those regions sell more vehicles than the US. But then, they don’t sell many large pickups and SUVs, so there’s that.

The 5% that isn’t true…BYD does not have a plant in Mexico. Yet. They’re looking for property or to acquire a plant that may soon be closed by another automaker. Currently they import vehicles to Mexico from China.

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

" The California Air Resources Board on Thursday signed off on a sweeping plan requiring that by 2035, all new passenger cars and light trucks sold in the state be electric vehicles or other emissions-free models." It doesnt get any clearer than this. "
Will other states follow suit?

Under the federal Clean Air Act, California is allowed to set tougher emissions standards than the federal government. In recent years, more than a dozen other states (including New York, Massachusetts and Washington) have followed California’s rules too." And of course they will!

Battery powered tools and small equipment is also being forced upon us. Beginning Jan 1st, 2029, sales of new, small off road gasoline engines will be banned in California. These engines are already mandated to have EVAP canisters. "The California Air Resources Board approved a measure that will require most newly manufactured small off-road engines (SORE) such as those found in leaf blowers, lawn mowers and other equipment be zero emission starting in 2024. Portable generators, including those in recreational vehicles, would be required to meet more stringent standards in 2024 and meet zero-emission standards starting in 2028."

This is a STATE imposing a mandate, not the Federal government. The Federal government has not attempted to ban ICE. There’s a big difference between state mandates and federal mandates. There is no federal mandate. There are a number of states that have signed on to California’s regulations and they would also stand to “ban” ICE in the same timeframe. Except several of them are waltzing that California’s ban is a bit over the top and several states are backing out of it. Now Canada…THAT’S a Federal ban. But Canada’s vehicle sales are typically around 10% of US sales. California sells more than Canada.

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

Cummins has entered the electric truck market. Why? From Jan 2024:
"California rang in the new year by delaying enforcement of its "Advanced Clean Fleets" Regulation, which requires trucking companies operating in the state to purchase an increasing percentage of electric trucks in the coming years. While enforcement was slated to begin this week, officials at the California Air Resources Board agreed to pause the registration and compliance requirements until the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency grants the regulation a green light to proceed." Thats a mandate to force replacement of diesels with electric semis. I'd also like to point out that since 1990, diesel emissions have been reduced well over 92%. I'd say we've reached the mountaintop and should take a few decades of victory laps.

I've done the research. Electric mandates are both real and undeniable.

Electric mandates at a state level are real. Electric mandates at a Canadian federal level are real. Electric mandates at a US federal level do not exist.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by NovaSS4spdFan

Just saw an interview on Fox today. The Biden-Harris administration has promised to GM that they'd pledge 500 million to the cost of converting the Lansing Plant into a TOTAL electric auto manufacturing facility.
So if you believe that a Gen 7 Camaro will be ICE or even a hybrid, then you believe the moon is made of green cheese.
Anyone want to take bets that another plant will be retooled to make an ICE Gen 7 ?

TBH, I would not be surprised to see a hybrid or PHEV Camaro sometime down the road. Alongside an electric Camaro. It doesn’t have to be built at Lansing. Camaros have been built at Oshawa, Fremont, and Norwood before Lansing. Look at all the plants Equinox has been manufactured at. I’ve lost count. They used to mainly come from CAMI in Woodstock, Ontario as well as another plan on the east coast. Now they’re made in Ramos Arizpe, Mexico and one other plant that I don’t remember. It happens.

As far as Lansing Grand River and the government funding… The conversion of the plant was already under way. That’s one of the reasons Camaro ended when it did. Plant conversion needed to start. The Department of Energy Domestic Manufacturing Conversion grant money simply offsets some of the spending already planned for the complex. And GM was only one of nine grants awarded to several businesses from the same fund, totalling $2B. Only the GM award made news though. The other award recipients are

• ZF
• Volvo
• Harley Davidson
• Stellantis (Belvedere plan)
• Stellantis (Kokomo plant)
• Cummins Engine
• Blue Bird Bus
• Mobis

Each recipient has to apply for and qualify for the grant. The projects that receive the grants have to already be funded conversion projects. So the government is not TELLING any company to do anything. They are granting funds for plans the recipients already have, based on the quality of their projects and applications.