Electric Vehicles

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by docwra

I only heard about this about the Cybertruck, it cant be sold in Europe as it apparently hasnt been independently tested, even if it had it would fail hard on pedestrian safety.

Quick google seems its not alone, from here: https://tinyurl.com/2smndvmk:

"Among vehicles without ratings, a few—such as the BMW 7 Series and Lucid Air luxury sedans—have sales numbers well below 10,000 cars a year"

Interestingly the Lucid Air does have a 5* Euro NCAP safety rating despite only being sold in 4 European countries, they only shifted 156 last year ......... so 10,000 is still quite a lot, right?

NHTSA does not test every single model, but every single model gets tested…sorta.

OEMs are allowed to self-test and report the findings to NHTSA. Self testing requires following the NHTSA processes exactly and with documentation. Also, there is provision for “shielding”. For example, if GM tests a Silverado, that test can “shield” a Sierra.

If EU requires that NHTSA (or maybe even IIHS) do the actual testing then there are a lot of vehicles that would not qualify for sale in EU.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by genxer

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/08/ko...rking-garages/
https://insideevs.com/news/730672/so...ev-fire-panic/
https://v.daum.net/v/20240811150646465
https://m.khan.co.kr/national/incide...02408051716507

I hope you'll step back to this story. Has fire department data been aggregated for battery type, time to extinguish, reach of colateral damage?

Not that I know of. Would b cool if there is such a database.

Originally Posted by genxer

"South Korean officials met last week to discuss an emergency response to the recent EV fires and quell ongoing public concerns. As a result, it urged automakers to reveal the suppliers of its battery cells to help instill confidence in the public." I'm discounting blaming fires on Chinese manufacturing. No scaled up vehicle producer can eliminate recalls.

If the general public EV buyer was also made aware of battery chemistry in use, would they be making the same choices as tech enthusiast early adopters? I'm guessing that plays into Tesla now offering LFP choices. The EQE from the fire was reported as Li Nickel Cobalt Manganese.

"In addition to restricting access to underground garages to EVs that have been charged to less than 90%, the new rules will enforce a charging limit of 80% on rapid charges through South Korea’s capital city."

Most batteries are NCM or NMC (same thing, just ordered differently) but there are still multiple formulations, depending on how much nickel, how much cobalt, how much manganese. Making people aware of the NCM vs LFP vs NCMA (aluminum replacing some of the cobalt and/or manganese) at the percentage of each mineral could result in forum side discussions of which formulations rule and which formulations suck ass. I hope to never wind up in such a discussion, but this is the internet.

Originally Posted by genxer

Are 80-90% charges going to be the new 100%? You've characterized Li-ion to LFP as similar to V8 versus V6. If lower performing cells are the easy safety choice, then even more so as KMPrenger says "hybrids just make sense" (including plug-in and erev).

Sorta like my prior comment. There are so many variables to battery cell chemistry (% of each mineral), geometry (cylinder vs pouch versus prismatic) installation (module vs cell-to-pack vs cell-to-body) and cooling strategy (too many to list) that just blanketly saying that this type does this thing better than that type will get really gray really soon. Although at this point in time, it is safe to say that NCM / NCMA discharge energy faster than LFP in like configurations is safe to say. There will likely be more development done on LFP over the next several years to bring it up to NCM / NCMA levels of energy discharge. Can that be done without compromising safety? I’m not the one to answer that, but I do know a few people that are keeping an eye on that. And we haven’t even started talking motors. They have a big say in all of this and all electric motors are not created equal. Not by a long shot.

I don’t think that charging to 80% becomes the new 100%. This is just a quick reaction by South Korea to a really horrific situation. Different battery types have different charging norms and manufacturers will communicate what is the best charging scheme for each vehicle. Tesla does that today based on how owners of NCM equipped cars are instructed and the way owners of LFP cars are instructed. I expect that to continue.

Originally Posted by genxer

I'm also hoping you comment more about this week's Ford EV news. The skunkworks vehicle reported to be mid-size trucks seems odd.

Two thoughts on that…I know our forecasters already had the “skunkworks” vehicle well placed in our forecast. I don’t think they had it as a pickup though. But it makes sense. Mid-sized pickups are already selling in fairly high numbers as hybrids. And the Rivian R1S, which is sort of a mid-sized / full-sized tweener sells pretty well and performs off the charts. It’s a market that doesn’t do a lot of towing, Canyon / Colorado diesels aside. An EV pickup makes much more sense there than in the F150 / Silverado Ram 1500 class.

[Mr_Draco]

Originally Posted by docwra

I only heard about this about the Cybertruck, it cant be sold in Europe as it apparently hasnt been independently tested, even if it had it would fail hard on pedestrian safety.

Quick google seems its not alone, from here: https://tinyurl.com/2smndvmk:

"Among vehicles without ratings, a few—such as the BMW 7 Series and Lucid Air luxury sedans—have sales numbers well below 10,000 cars a year"

Interestingly the Lucid Air does have a 5* Euro NCAP safety rating despite only being sold in 4 European countries, they only shifted 156 last year ......... so 10,000 is still quite a lot, right?

In order to be sold in the US, all vehicles must be tested by the manufacturer in accordance with NHTSA's guidelines and regulations and must be thoroughly recorded and documented. The results of these tests are not required to made public but they must meet a certain star rating.

If the NHTSA wishes to independently test and verify the ratings, the NHTSA is required to purchase the vehicles themselves. They have a limited budget so the higher priced, and/or low volume vehicles don't get tested. This is the complete opposite of Euro's NCAP. In Europe, the entire cost of testing a vehicle from the purchasing of the multiple vehicles to be tested, cost of the test equipment, and even the cost of man hours of the employees themselves, falls on the burden of the manufacturer so NCAP is free to test any and every vehicle it desires as they do not have a budget.

[genxer]

EV battery fire related news:
-Word salad announcement from Hyundai, now shifting effort toward hybrids.
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/08/hy...ts-ev-targets/

-"Fire destroys hundreds of cars at long-term parking of Lisbon Airport... hundreds of vehicles belonging to travellers are parked. An electric car parked there is likely responsible for the blaze."
https://www.aviation24.be/airports/l...-term-parking/

-"Over 50 Rivian R1T And R1S Models Ruined In Factory Fire... A video shared on social media shows the severity of the inferno, with huge flames stretching into the sky and thick black smoke billowing out from the toasty Rivians."
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/08/ov...-factory-fire/

[olrocker]

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by genxer

EV battery fire related news:
-Word salad announcement from Hyundai, now shifting effort toward hybrids.
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/08/hy...ts-ev-targets/

-"Fire destroys hundreds of cars at long-term parking of Lisbon Airport... hundreds of vehicles belonging to travellers are parked. An electric car parked there is likely responsible for the blaze."
https://www.aviation24.be/airports/l...-term-parking/

-"Over 50 Rivian R1T And R1S Models Ruined In Factory Fire... A video shared on social media shows the severity of the inferno, with huge flames stretching into the sky and thick black smoke billowing out from the toasty Rivians."
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/08/ov...-factory-fire/

I wonder how many total/aggretate lifetimes of tailpipe emissions I would have to live to create as much carbon emissions as just one of these fires?

[Martinjlm]

Somebody asked in another thread whether there are ever any spy shots of EVs. Rather than post them in that thread (way off topic) I figured I’d post some of them here.

First couple picks are of the Kia EV3. It will be built in Mexico and expected to be priced in the $30 - 35k range.

Then there are a few shots of the Porsche 718 EV, including one with a fake exhaust tip, a favorite ploy of OEMs to “disguise” EV prototypes.

I will leave it to those who are interested to figure out the brand of the grey & blue camo vehicle. The answer may shock you (pun intended).

[90503]

That blue and white one...sure looks like the old Subaru WRX hatchback that was discontinued....guess:Subaru.

2nd guess (with pun):Buick "Electra".

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

That blue and white one...sure looks like the old Subaru WRX hatchback that was discontinued....guess:Subaru.

2nd guess (with pun):Buick "Electra".

Ice cold (x2)

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Ice cold (x2)

I know what it is.

On the one hand I can see nobody wanting one.

On the other I can see them selling very well.

It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

I know what it is.

On the one hand I can see nobody wanting one.

On the other I can see them selling very well.

It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.

I’m not sure you know what it is. I seriously doubt that this will sell very well, based on the brand. What brand do you think it is?

On a similar note, I was out and about today and came across this. It’s a Captured Test Fleet production Cadillac Optiq. Think Baby Lyriq. Think XT4 but electric. Will be going on sale soon.

[Mr_Draco]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I seriously doubt that this will sell very well, based on the brand.

I agree. I don't think it will sell many seeing what their usual buyers are. I'm honestly surprised they went with a hatchback. Doesn't fit their style imo.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’m not sure you know what it is. I seriously doubt that this will sell very well, based on the brand. What brand do you think it is?

On a similar note, I was out and about today and came across this. It’s a Captured Test Fleet production Cadillac Optiq. Think Baby Lyriq. Think XT4 but electric. Will be going on sale soon.

Ferrari?

I saw a Lyric in the wild the other day. That kind of pale blue color. It was a very striking vehicle. Very nice.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

If I'm right about it being Ferrari, I don't think it will go over at all with the gold chain wearing trial lawyer/plastic surgeon crowd. But it might be something their wives would want.

And then there would be the virtue signaling celebrities and influencers who might be all over it.

So there's a chance it sells.

If it's not a Ferrari then never mind.