[HemiDave]

And let's put things in true perspective.

The ZLE was driven by an American Amateur driver, GM Engineer Bill Wise, who was unfamiliar with the Ring but still ran a 7:16 and then a 7:13 on a hand timed hot lap.

So this was nowhere near a max effort by GM.

The M4 CSL was driven by accomplished German Professional race driver and BMW developing engineer, Jörg Weidinger, who knows the ring and the car like the back of his hand.

BMW went all out because their unofficial ring time means much more to them as a measuring stick against their European rivals.

So...probable GM clerical errors aside...is this the comparison BMW fans want to make?

I am looking at a BMW M3 Competition for my next daily, so I am no BMW hater lol.

Carry on...

[SFV1LE]

Originally Posted by NG329

A bad look?! Seriously? That’s a big reach my guy. The video was up for years. YEARS!!!!!

Probably a minor oversight. The fact that an American Mechanical Engineer that just happens to develop the Camaro set that time in Europe speaks volumes about the car. At some point, we really gotta read in between the lines.

I'm not debating the skill of Bill Wise and accomplishment of the ~1:20...

But am I supposed to believe that GM, Al Oppenheiser head of ZLE development, and Bill Wise the driver and ZLE engineer, didn't know they were driving 20.6 KM lap when the set the timer to start exactly .2 KM from the 20.8 finish? And they didn't read the famous press release and notice 6 years ago that GM published it as a 20.8 KM time?

You either don't think they lied, or assuming you do... you don't think it's a bad look? Deliberately misleading people for years is "not a bad look"? The fact that they didn't correct it for years makes it better somehow, not worse?

Ok agree to disagree :-)

[NG329]

Originally Posted by SFV1LE

I'm not debating the skill of Bill Wise and accomplishment of the ~1:20...

But am I supposed to believe that GM, Al Oppenheiser head of ZLE development, and Bill Wise the driver and ZLE engineer, didn't know they were driving 20.6 KM lap when the set the timer to start exactly .2 KM from the 20.8 finish? And they didn't read the famous press release and notice 6 years ago that GM published it as a 20.8 KM time?

You either don't think they lied, or assuming you do... you don't think it's a bad look? Deliberately misleading people for years is "not a bad look"? The fact that they didn't correct it for years makes it better somehow, not worse?

Ok agree to disagree :-)

Al is a member here. Perhaps you could just ask him. That would be much better than making assumptions.

As a poster stated earlier, they ran the configuration that was commonly used at the time. An official working the track that day could have very well miscommunicated information. In the real world, things get lost in translation all the time. It happens. Always assuming bad intentions on other parties when things don’t add up is a very cynical way to live. It’s gotta be hard not trusting anyone.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by NG329

Al is a member here. Perhaps you could just ask him. That would be much better than making assumptions.

As a poster stated earlier, they ran the configuration that was commonly used at the time. An official working the track that day could have very well miscommunicated information. In the real world, things get lost in translation all the time. It happens. Always assuming bad intentions on other parties when things don’t add up is a very cynical way to live. It’s gotta be hard not trusting anyone.

Exactly. I'm sure everyone else did/does the same, so they just followed the pattern already set. No need to manufacture a conspiracy theory around it, they weren't even competing with any other team in particular---the Viper was unbeatable, Dodge had nothing else that came close and Ford never even bothered to send a Mustang to the Nürburgring.

One only needs to watch that video once to appreciate the car's abilities (and the driver's!), and, as someone above stated, they ran a 7:13 later without the official timing equipment running, so I'm pretty sure the car could do even better. This was a freaking Camaro, guys, playing with and beating Lamborghinis and Porsche 911s.

[Kamero6]

On behalf of the engineers and drivers this smells like a marketing stun.
Marketing and sales runs the circus and there's little you can do to make a point with hard numbers and reality.

Ferrari won't let you test any car unless you sign a contract, they provide a car, you need to make the review they want and if you say otherwise they sue you.
At least we can test drive a camero any day at any dealer with market adjustments.

[The Maverick]

Originally Posted by SFV1LE

You either don't think they lied, or assuming you do... you don't think it's a bad look? Deliberately misleading people for years is "not a bad look"?

The mistake theory seems to make a lot more sense than the suggestion that this is some Perry Mason moment. If they really were aiming to "deliberately lie," why would they post a video directly showing the "lie" - they just could have reported the claimed time.

[Camfab]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Exactly. I'm sure everyone else did/does the same, so they just followed the pattern already set. No need to manufacture a conspiracy theory around it, they weren't even competing with any other team in particular---the Viper was unbeatable, Dodge had nothing else that came close and Ford never even bothered to send a Mustang to the Nürburgring.

One only needs to watch that video once to appreciate the car's abilities (and the driver's!), and, as someone above stated, they ran a 7:13 later without the official timing equipment running, so I'm pretty sure the car could do even better. This was a freaking Camaro, guys, playing with and beating Lamborghinis and Porsche 911s.

As an FYI, and I hate to say this, but cheating at the Ring is very common, some may call it bending the rules. The 7:01 Viper time was not on a bone stock car. The car had a cage for safety (thankfully as there was a wreck) but that adds weight. On the other hand, the cars were modded and that’s all I’m gonna say….

I also think GM took the video down because the 1LE is done for ‘24. From a marketing perspective you don’t want to hail the 1LE as the ultimate Camaro when you’re no longer selling it. I think it’s silly to actually believe it had anything to do with BMW’s release of their car.

Finally and though this has nothing to do with the start finish line deal, none of the numbers people live and die by are real comparable data. None of it means anything scientifically. Unless every car could be tested on the exact same day at the exact same time by a robot that could instantly adapt to any car’s abilities it’s all nonsense.

[NG329]

....and let's not hold our breath for the C8 Z06 Nurburgring run which GM bragged would be sub 7 minutes.

I can see in my mind's eye Al Oppenheiser and Bill Wise snorting their beer through their nostrils in condescending disdain.

[HemiDave]

Originally Posted by Camfab

As an FYI, and I hate to say this, but cheating at the Ring is very common, some may call it bending the rules. The 7:01 Viper time was not on a bone stock car. The car had a cage for safety (thankfully as there was a wreck) but that adds weight. On the other hand, the cars were modded and that’s all I’m gonna say….

A clerical error/oversight is not cheating.

Safety mods are not performance mods, and actually hurt performance as you stated.

Running the 20.6 was what every production car did then as stated before, which is even more reason to believe the 20.8 lap listed in the press release was not to deceive, but a mistake.

And ask yourself, why would GM release a video of the 20.6 run if they intended to lie about it?

I personally don't think Al O or Bill Wise is proof reading or writing GM press releases.

[Z OH 6]

Bill Wise may be an amateur but people are really selling his driving skills short. The man is a suspension and handling engineering expert. I'm quite certain he's got a LOT of seat time/training in high performance cars and is very capable of driving this car to its limit. I seriously doubt there was much more in this car in anyone's hands. Of course different track conditions, weather, etc could have made a small difference. This 1LE Nurburgring run is getting more and more exaggerated as this discussion continues. Soon people here will be speculating it could have run in the 6s.

[HemiDave]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Bill Wise may be an amateur but people are really selling his driving skills short. The man is a suspension and handling engineering expert. I'm quite certain he's got a LOT of seat time/training in high performance cars and is very capable of driving this car to its limit. I seriously doubt there was much more in this car in anyone's hands. Of course different track conditions, weather, etc could have made a small difference. This 1LE Nurburgring run is getting more and more exaggerated as this discussion continues. Soon people here will be speculating it could have run in the 6s.

Amateur driver, Bill Wise, ran an outstanding lap on a foreign track, known as THE GREEN HELL where he has little seat time.

No one here exaggerated the ZLE ring time.

It ran a 7:16 and a hand timed hot lap 7:13 right after as verified by Al O.

No one here speculated Ring times if the ZLE was piloted by a Professional familiar with the GREEN HELL.

You however are speculating that no Pro can drive the ZLE better than Bill Wise.

You are probably wrong......

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by HemiDave

Amateur driver, Bill Wise, ran an outstanding lap on a foreign track, known as THE GREEN HELL where he has little seat time.

No one here exaggerated the ZLE ring time.

It ran a 7:16 and a hand timed hot lap 7:13 right after as verified by Al O.

No one here speculated Ring times if the ZLE was piloted by a Professional familiar with the GREEN HELL.

You however are speculating that no Pro can drive the ZLE better than Bill Wise.

You are probably wrong......

I said the difference would likely be minimal and that you are drastically underselling Bill's driving ability. You're likely in the camp that thinks this car could run in the low 7s or high 6s even though physics say it would be impossible when you look at the cars that are running in the low 7s. You are probably wrong.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Kamero6

On behalf of the engineers and drivers this smells like a marketing stun.
Marketing and sales runs the circus and there's little you can do to make a point with hard numbers and reality.

Ferrari won't let you test any car unless you sign a contract, they provide a car, you need to make the review they want and if you say otherwise they sue you.
At least we can test drive a camero any day at any dealer with market adjustments.

Have you watched Throttle House’s Ferrari reviews? They absolutely trash the user interface and steering wheels.

[HemiDave]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

You're likely in the camp that thinks this car could run in the low 7s or high 6s even though physics say it would be impossible when you look at the cars that are running in the low 7s. You are probably wrong.

No, I am not in that camp....and I am also not in your camp that Bill Wise is as skilled as a pro driver.